J-15 carrier-borne fighter thread

[Gatekeeper]

Perhaps I have explained myself wrongly, the Soviet era plans were the state's intellectual property and the drawings were archived in Moscow, any Soviet era "plans" automatically passed to the state that officially succeeded them, that is, the Russian Federation;
the military equipment of the USSR military apparatus is different and with agreements it has been divided with the nations born from the dissolution of the USSR.
Then certainly the design offices and military factories in the Soviet republics remained the property of the independent states.
In summary, all the projects carried out in the Soviet era, intellectual property is available to Moscow, even if materially at that time it was designed in offices located in Ukraine or other republics of the USSR, if then the Ukrainians sold a prototype that remained their disposal, this does not automatically grant the license to replicate it to whoever bought it.

Ok. I'm absolutely at a loss. Are we saying all military items, from hardware to design belongs to Russia. And the former states like Ukraine have no rights to these, even if they own and have the hardware! As such they got no rights to sell the T10. And any work subsequently on it is illegal?! Surly this applies to the Varig too!

But as others have mentioned. That the subsequent Ukrainian engineers working in China. That's legal right? So China developing the J15 is legitimate. Right? They didn't reverse engineer anything as they didn't have the SU33 to reverse engineer from the first place.

So the only thing that's wrong is the purchase of the T10 because it didn't belong to the Ukrainians?!

 

[supersnoop]

Sahureka, I don’t think you are wrong at all. In fact I absolutely agree that Russia would have rights to the designs produced by Soviet design offices whether it was located in Crimea like НИТКА or anywhere that Russia proper.

@Gatekeeper. I would say, long story short, it’s complicated.

Simply put, the “legitimacy” of the J-15 cannot be put into a western legal framework that simply doesn’t/didn’t exist in China or the USSR.

Even if we could do this, all the relevant details are classified info. Do we know if SAC actually used any Soviet technical documentation? It could be a totally clean-sheet reimplementation of Su-33-style modifications. Maybe the differences between the current J-11 and original Su-27 are too great. Maybe the fabrication equipment isn’t available. Soviets had given up on catapult launches, did that affect the design of Su-33? Does J-15 make any compromises to that end? etc., etc.

Actually the one thing that we can say is that T-10K was legitimately property of Ukraine.

 

[Scorpio]

Why are you so obsessed with China exporting Flankers? China's not obsessed with it; China hasn't entertained the idea cus it has so many other things going on. And no matter how you modify a Flanker, it's still a Flanker. You can modify a J-11 into a J-15, then into another land variant, them modify it back into a naval variant, then modify that again into another land variant and so forth; it bears no meaning as long as it's still a Flanker. Russia will still be very very angry and China is still not interested in wasting time and resources on projects like that.

Due some news that china is exporting some j15 for Pakistan navy.

 

[Scorpio]

You are correct and indeed it was too harsh.

I even fully agree with @Totoro who stated a few weeks ago, that the legal issues might have been solved in the meantime with Russia.
Anyway, a Flanker remains a Flanker and Russia would never agree to sell them and I'm sure China has no interest to do so.

Even more I really don't understand why some are so much obsessed with this idea.

Time will tell bro. Mark my words time will tell

 

[Scorpio]

Sahureka, I don’t think you are wrong at all. In fact I absolutely agree that Russia would have rights to the designs produced by Soviet design offices whether it was located in Crimea like НИТКА or anywhere that Russia proper.

@Gatekeeper. I would say, long story short, it’s complicated.

Simply put, the “legitimacy” of the J-15 cannot be put into a western legal framework that simply doesn’t/didn’t exist in China or the USSR.

Even if we could do this, all the relevant details are classified info. Do we know if SAC actually used any Soviet technical documentation? It could be a totally clean-sheet reimplementation of Su-33-style modifications. Maybe the differences between the current J-11 and original Su-27 are too great. Maybe the fabrication equipment isn’t available. Soviets had given up on catapult launches, did that affect the design of Su-33? Does J-15 make any compromises to that end? etc., etc.

Actually the one thing that we can say is that T-10K was legitimately property of Ukraine.

My point is that J11 is licensed copy of Su27 , itvwill reamin licensed copy how many version you make.
Same casr J16 as per my info is licensed copy of SU30MKK , will remained licensed how many version you make.

Last J15 was not copy bcuz china purchased its blueprints and jet from from Ukraine properly, how much Russia got angry cant do any thing. Can sale to anyone thay want.

May be china dont want sale flanker J15 to one as per your info. Sometimes things are different when it came ti strategic and region alliance. In that case decision is taken not on basics of profits instead of geo political reasons.

WAIT AND SEE , IN FEE COMING MONTHs, ONE OF EXPORT WILL RECONFIRM THIS NEWS.

 

[Gatekeeper]

Actually the one thing that we can say is that T-10K was legitimately property of Ukraine.

Ah, from this, it is clearer to my simple mind. And conform to my understanding of it before a week ago. (I'm not saying I'm right. Mind).

My understanding of this flanker saga is:

J11 is a reverse engineered from SU27. (Could be illegal, but we don't know). All we got to go by is why ain't the Russian more angry than they are. And why haven't they stopped selling hardware to China as punishment full stop!

J15 is perfectly legit! It stem from a T10 which is owned lock, stock and barrel by Ukraine. They can do what ever their like and have done so by selling it to China.

China have never obtained the SU33, therefore have nothing to reverse engineer.

From the T10, and with the hiring of Ukraine expertise China was able to build the J15, and this is important, by going FORWARD!

So the J15 is China's assets 100%. And it can do whatever it likes with it. BUT however selling it to anyone is highly unlikely (and no nations would have a need for it or the carrier for it in any case). It's just pure wish list on some fan boys in another country wishing it.

 

[Deino]

Time will tell bro. Mark my words time will tell

WAIT AND SEE , IN FEE COMING MONTHs, ONE OF EXPORT WILL RECONFIRM THIS NEWS.

I will truly wait ... there will never be an export customer of any Chinese Flanker, regardless any fan-boy wants that.

Or what country do you suggest would buy a reverse-engineered Su-33 re-converted into a land-based fighter?

 

[ougoah]

J-15 for Pakistan's navy? Why not buy Su-30MK2 from Russia which is also a naval fighter. The J-15 is a carrier fighter. Pakistan doesn't operate any carriers, even less so any carrier capable of launching the J-15. J-10 has naval versions doesn't it? PLANAF operates J-11B, Su-30MK2, and J-10. Even those purchases are quite unlikely. Plus none of them have any decent sub hunting abilities.

 

[Deino]

J-15 for Pakistan's navy? Why not buy Su-30MK2 from Russia which is also a naval fighter. The J-15 is a carrier fighter. Pakistan doesn't operate any carriers, even less so any carrier capable of launching the J-15. J-10 has naval versions doesn't it? PLANAF operates J-11B, Su-30MK2, and J-10. Even those purchases are quite unlikely. Plus none of them have any decent sub hunting abilities.

This "most reliable" source is surely the same idiot who claimed, the PLAN would sell - or better simply give it for free - the 'Liaoning' since Pakistan can get whatever it wants!

Ok ... @Scorpio, either You give a quote. mention or source or shut up. Again, we are not a fan-boy forum where everyone can claim any BS he has found in the www somewhere.

Either prove it or give at least an option to discuss in a fine manner, why and why not, but this is pure BS.

Take this as a warning.

 

[Rettam Stacf]

Why are we still spending so much time and energy discussing about whether China COULD or COULD NOT sell Chinese build Flankers or Flanker derivatives ?

The real question is whether China SHOULD or SHOULD NOT sell them. If there is a need/will, there is a way for China.

And that debate belong to the Flanker thread and not here.