QBZ-191 service rifle family

[Dfangsaur]

SAW or LMG both refer to a dedicated Light machine gun which is what those images clearly show. SAW of course references the M249 based off the FN Minimi.
The PLA in the QBB95 and CS/LR17 showed a “Squad Machine Gun” “Automatic Rifle” is another more appropriate term.
The first question is one of weight. Both M249 and the current PLA QJY88 are about 17 pounds empty weight. That’s not a “Light” anything. When you start adding in ammo this is not a weapon you wish to carry. This is likely at the heart of why the PLA issued the QBB95 at 8.6 pounds.
Well the US and others accepted the Minimi’s weight some have favored a lighter alternative. This is where LSW or IARs have come in. Objectively for a infantry small arm you want it under 12 pounds empty. Something closer to the Utilimax 100 in weight than the M249.

Is it still worth making a separate small caliber automatic rifle platform? I thought USMC is completely replacing everyone’s gun with m27. Wouldn’t it make more sense to work on gpmg with full power rifle cartridge And just issue heavy barrel and drum mag?.

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

Is it still worth making a separate small caliber automatic rifle platform? I thought USMC is completely replacing everyone’s gun with m27. Wouldn’t it make more sense to work on gpmg with full power rifle cartridge And just issue heavy barrel and drum mag?.

The USMC is issuing M27 only to rifle squads.
Fire Support platoons still have and will retain M249 until replacement with a future weapon not the M27. they are fielding M27 as Auto gunner, DMR and service rifle yes but not absolutely everyone is getting them Besides Marine rifle squads are large. Between 13-18 depending on situation with 15 Marines being the objective. That’s almost double the norm which is about 7-9. The PLA is said to use a 9-10 man squad formation

Drum magazines have a mixed history at best. The magazine feed is the weakest point of any automatic weapon design. No high capacity drum magazine has passed a serious reliability tests.
The IAR concept runs into issues of heat reliability and service life. the heavy barrel can partially mitigate this but only to point. the barrel is only part of the system. and those other points of the rifle. The gas port and bolt also take more wear over time.

M27 was adopted because primarily it was lighter than the M249 and offered accurate fire on par with the rest of the rifle squad. The Marines then decided to go all in as they wanted to ditch the 3 round burst mechanical system as the Army already had on M4A1. For reasons never clarified the USMC didn’t want to adopt M4A1 beyond highly specialized elements like Raiders and force recon. In practice M27 really offers a product on par with M4A1 but with a heavier weight.

Some military formations will follow the IAR model this is true but not all.
The GPMG is useful but it’s weight and smaller capacity for ammo limit it’s mobility. So it’s a question of doctrine and training. Clearly weapons like the M249 have a weight penalty.
Yet at the same time other armies when offered such systems rejected it. The German army was pitched the MG36 a heavy barrel C drum version of the G36. The German Army said no, They demanded a M249 type LMG and form that the MG4.
The USMC, US Army and Canada experimented in the 80s with heavy barrel M16 with drums and replaced them with M249 the second it became available. The US Army is spec’d it’s NGSW family for a infantry rifle and a separate LMG.

 

[Blitzo]

The USMC is issuing M27 only to rifle squads.
Fire Support platoons still have and will retain M249 until replacement with a future weapon not the M27. they are fielding M27 as Auto gunner, DMR and service rifle yes but not absolutely everyone is getting them Besides Marine rifle squads are large. Between 13-18 depending on situation with 15 Marines being the objective. That’s almost double the norm which is about 7-9. The PLA is said to use a 9-10 man squad formation

Drum magazines have a mixed history at best. The magazine feed is the weakest point of any automatic weapon design. No high capacity drum magazine has passed a serious reliability tests.
The IAR concept runs into issues of heat reliability and service life. the heavy barrel can partially mitigate this but only to point. the barrel is only part of the system. and those other points of the rifle. The gas port and bolt also take more wear over time.

M27 was adopted because primarily it was lighter than the M249 and offered accurate fire on par with the rest of the rifle squad. The Marines then decided to go all in as they wanted to ditch the 3 round burst mechanical system as the Army already had on M4A1. For reasons never clarified the USMC didn’t want to adopt M4A1 beyond highly specialized elements like Raiders and force recon. In practice M27 really offers a product on par with M4A1 but with a heavier weight.

Some military formations will follow the IAR model this is true but not all.
The GPMG is useful but it’s weight and smaller capacity for ammo limit it’s mobility. So it’s a question of doctrine and training. Clearly weapons like the M249 have a weight penalty.
Yet at the same time other armies when offered such systems rejected it. The German army was pitched the MG36 a heavy barrel C drum version of the G36. The German Army said no, They demanded a M249 type LMG and form that the MG4.
The USMC, US Army and Canada experimented in the 80s with heavy barrel M16 with drums and replaced them with M249 the second it became available. The US Army is spec’d it’s NGSW family for a infantry rifle and a separate LMG.

I personally think it would not be a bad idea to have a squad armed with one of the new LMG and one of a (not yet seen) automatic rifle/LSW/SAW variant of the new service rifle.
And populate the rest of the squad with assault rifle and/or carbine variants of the new rifle, and one or two DMR variants perhaps.

Looking at the new service rifle, it should be sufficient to be adapted into a number of different roles that most of the primary small arms of a typical squad can be replaced by variants of the new rifle.

The major small arms weapon that would not be replaced by a variant of the new service rifle would probably be the LMG role, assuming the PLA wants a true LMG. Obviously a true LMG would offer a different set of capabilities to an automatic rifle/LSW/SAW variant of the new service rifle, which the latter cannot replace.

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

Adapting the rifle to that configuration isn’t an issue. I can’t think of a single Military rifle that couldn’t be.
It’s a question of doctrine primarily. Would said Infantry force do this or field a proper LMG?
The advantage of the LMG is sustainable fire bursts. The advantage of the IAR is increased accuracy in single shots. It’s MG42 vs FG42. RPD vs RPK.
The Russians moved from the RPD to RPK as they felt it was lighter more nimble.
So I think it comes down to weight in the end. However if that’s the case when you consider that you don’t actually need to build a LMG as heavy as the RPD, FN minimi, MG4 and you can add single shot to a LMG I think a lot of the wind is knocked from the IAR class’s sails.


The Ultimax 100 has a somewhat troubled build life until about the Mk3. But it offers a full LMG albeit magazine feed with in latter models a single shot mode at about 11 pounds. The Stoner M63 LMG did the same with a belt fed in Vietnam but was more sensitive to abuse.

The QBB95 is listed with an Empty weight of 8.6 pounds. The Kac LAMG is listed with an empty weight of 8.6 pounds.
QBB95 is a IAR a heavy barreled drum fed version of the QBZ95.
The Kac LAMG is a LMG proper with quick change barrel. Belt feed.
Both are capable of single shot or full rock and roll automatic.

 

[Blitzo]

Oh yes, developing a IAR/LSW/SAW variant of the rifle's not a problem, I'm more wondering whether the PLA would adopt one if they're also seemingly developing the new LMG.

The weight of the new LMG will certainly be the deciding factor, in relation to a hypothetical IAR/LSW/SAW variant.


If a IAR/LSW/SAW variant of the rifle has a similar weight to the M27 and the new LMG has a similar weight to the Kac LAMG, I wonder if they would find a use for the former.

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

If they can get the new LMG weight below 11 pounds empty. I think making a IAR variant becomes a harder sell to the PLA.

 

[by78]

Fairly accurate.

(1630 × 642)

 

[Blitzo]

Some speculate that the standard optic for the new assault rifle is based on this sight from Laserspeed out of Dandong, China. It apparently features both a tritium and fiber optic illumination. My technical Chinese on optics is non-existent, and since this is an image, I can't translate it easily. Could someone take a look and provide a translation?

(1123 × 1912)

I can translate a few but the rest I don't really know.
The dimensions and weight are all self explanatory.

The illumination method is tritium and fibre optic.
The tritium illumination designed lifespan is 12 years
x3 magnification.


The product webpage

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The name from the company is called DART185 or XL-TT180515

Product view pic below:

 

[Blitzo]

a nice drawing from this wechat post, which summarizes a bit about what we know about the new rifle. I won't post the whole thing here because it's mostly stuff that we know from the last week or so, but it's viewable through the link.
There's a fair bit which talks about the construction and design of the gun which is quite technical, which is also why I'm not going to translate it cause I don't know if I can get the words right.

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[Franklin]

The new QBZ-191 rifle with a mention in the article of "Rick Joe" our very own Blitzo.

China's Army Is Getting a New Assault Rifle (And It Could Be a Really Big Deal)

China unveiled a considerable amount of new military hardware. It seems this one was missed by many experts.

The grandiose military parade that rolled past Tiananmen Square to celebrate the Seventieth Anniversary was an embarrassment of riches for observers of the People’s Liberation Army. Amidst a procession featuring dozens of city-destroying intercontinental ballistic missiles, supersonic stealth fighters, robot submarines, stealth drones and hypersonic cruise missiles, the PLA’s flourishing of a brand-new assault rifle may have seemed beneath mention.

But that’s a mistake — with over 1.6 million Ground Forces soldiers, the PLA has the largest army on the planet. Whatever weapon is designate

The first hint the PLA was considering replacing its standard QBZ-95s rifle emerged in 2016-2017 through two images shared in a Chinese blog. That initial post was later elaborated upon in in U.S. media, most notably by Popular Science and The Fire Arms Blog.

More recently, just days prior to the anniversary parade, a few images leaked out. These photos revealed a design very similar to the earlier 2016-2017 photos. Finally on October 1, 2019 thousands of the weapons were televised before the global public, signaling the PLA’s intention to adopt it as a new service rifle.

The new weapon’s designation remains unconfirmed. Chinese state television merely commented “ This new assault rifle has a comfortable layout and the concept of modular design, which possesses the advantages of high power, high reliability and versatility.”

However, according to an in-depth piece on the The Firearms Blog by Anthony J., it’s designation may be the QBZ-191. Other commentators speculate it may be called the QBZ-17 or QBZ-19 — after the year of its entry in service.

The Bullpup and its Discontents

The new weapon will replace the QBZ-95 bullpup-style rifle that was introduced in 1997. At the time, the QBZ-95 also introduced the unique Chinese 5.8-millimeter round, touted as having greater energy than U.S. 5.56-millimeter rounds. The introduction of a rifle with greater long-range accuracy reflected a post-Gulf War drive to modernize the PLA’s old-school ground forces that had previously been focused on how win to mass warfare against technologically superior foes.

Three million QBZ-95s were built, including carbine and light support variants with a 75-round drum magazine. China also exported a 5.56-millimeter variant called the QBZ-97 which is used to varying degrees by armed forces in Laos, Myanmar, Pakistan, the Philippines, Rwanda and Sudan.

Around 2012, China also began issuing the improved QBZ-95-1 model using a heavier round and barrel, and boasting improved ergonomics and recoil absorption. But the QBZ-95-1 not integrated army-wide, suggesting the PLA was already looking ahead to a larger change.

A bullpup rifle incorporates the action and magazine behind the trigger, giving bullpup rifles a distinctly futuristic and stubby appearance. By integrating these components into the stock, bullpup weapon can generate the same velocity as a longer conventional rifle in a more compact and potentially lighter package. Major bullpup designs include the Austrian Steyr Aug, the French FAMAS, the Israeli Tavor X95 and the British SA80 rifle.

But the bullpup layout has downsides. In addition to some users finding them ergonomically awkward, a bullpup user must place their face closer to the action for aimed fire, increasing the risk of mishaps with spent ammunition casings, misfired rounds and collision with protruding mechanisms.

Recently, an increasing number of major bullpup operators are abandoning them in favor of the more conventional assault rifle layout — notably France which ditched the distinctive FAMAS for the HK-416 assault rifle.

While the PLA does not usually comment on the shortcomings of its weapons, Chinese military bloggers were unsparing in their criticisms. One notes that the that the weapon’s engineering precluded it from having modular components or incorporating a folding stock, and that the ability to reduce weight by using composite plastics makes the ergonomic tradeoffs of the bullpup unnecessary.

Even Chinese-language Wikipedia has a fourteen-point list of QBZ-95 flaws, including cheap night-sights rapidly losing their glow, difficulty in changing firing modes in combat, and a general lack of quality-control.

It also claims that the primer used by the 5.8-millimeter bullets fails to burn off cleanly when discharged, causing residue to build up that made the gas regulator and piston difficult to remove during a standard 2,000-round maintenance cycle. The residue buildup also supposedly causes pressure within the muzzle to increase, increasing noise, muzzle flash and risk of accidents.

Another apparent vote of no-confidence came in China’s later production of a more conventional QBZ-03 assault rifle apparently inspired by American small arms. The QBZ-03 was issued to police and second-line units whom were deemed “more familiar” with the layouts of China’s earlier conventional rifles, the Type 56 and Type 81.

China’s New Modular Rifle

The assault rifle displayed in 2019 marks a major transition back to a more conventional gas-operated short-stroke piston assault rifle. A folding stock with four or five fixed settings is also visible. A thumb-operated fire mode selector allows switching between semi- and fully-automatic fire.

Curiously, Anthony’s article claims the gun does away with the three-round burst option, which at one point was favored by the U.S. Army at the expense of automatic fire in its later M16 rifle variants.

Commenters have noticed the new Chinese gun’s similarities to the HK-416 (entering U.S. Marine Corps service as the M-27) and the FN SCAR, known for its adaptive components. Broadly, the new weapon seemingly reflects the increasingly popular concept that infantry rifles should feature modular components allowing customization for different roles and combat scenarios.

That’s reflected in a full-length Picatinny rail, which allows sights and gizmos to be slotted onto the rifle such as sights, flashlights, grips and dot lasers. For instance, a prominent fiber-optical illuminated reticle sight appeared to be standard in the 2019 parade. Diplomat writer Rick Joe has suggested the sight may be a 3X magnification Darter 185 scope. A flip-up iron sight is also visible on the barrel.

Three variants of the new rifle have been spotted so far: a short-barrel carbine, a standard rifle variant, and a Designated Marksmen Rifle variant pictured here (a sort of low-end sniper rifle integrated at the squad level) with a lengthened barrel, bipod, and enlarged scope.

It remains unclear whether a heavier light-machine gun or squad automatic weapon variant will also be produced as was done for the QBZ-95, as China is reportedly separately developing a new 5.8-millimeter light machine gun.

Anthony’s piece also reports that the weapon retains the 5.8x42 millimeter bullet of its predecessor, but that “its confirmed the PLA has adopted new 5.8x42mm rounds that have better performance on medium to long-range.”

If true, this would square with the increasing emphasis on longer-range marksmanship in professional armies, as well as growing concerns that greater penetration will be needed to overmatch modern body armor used by adversaries in a high-intensity conflict. A higher energy round could retain greater accuracy and penetration over longer distances..

Gun designer and former Delta Force operative Larry Vickers said in a Facebook post that a source told him variants of the new weapon would also be rechambered to fire Russian 5.45 millimeter rounds, NATO 7.62-millimeter ammuition, and 5.56 millimeter rounds.

It will be interesting to see what additional information is released on the new rifle — a name, for example, would be nice — and whether its integration into the PLA will be tied to continuing efforts to professionalize Beijing’s ground forces to prepare them for the complexities of modern battlefields.

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