UK Team Tempest

It would be delusional to think that UK with their F-35 developement approach is an interesting partner for Japan to develope an aircraft together with. The British wet dream of designing a British aircraft while other nations are paying for it is sure something.
trying to switch over to S.Blue
That is where Japan can possibly come in.
Japan MoD has made it clear that they will make formal requisition in developing the F-3 for 2020 budget.
 

Pmichael

Junior Member
I can't believe Japan invests a large amount of money into the XF9 engine and 3d thrust vectoring just to pay for a RR developement. While RR has very own ambitions as well of course.

At best something like the Sweden deal happens and there will be a MoU for synergy effects for specific subsystems but then the question would be what would UK provides what Lockheed can't.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
First off it is not my thread. I just think it is time to centralise the Tempest conversation into one thread.

The Combat Air Strategy, published in July 2018, sets out the Government’s ambition to develop a new combat air system that will fly alongside Typhoon and Lightning by 2035.

The RAF’s combat air fleet is about to undergo a massive change. The aging Tornado GR4 aircraft will leave service in 2019 and replaced by the new Lightning (F-35) aircraft. Lightning will then partner Typhoon, until the latter leaves service around 2040. Typhoon’s successor is the focus of the Combat Air Strategy. (Briefing Paper 08391, 31 AUGUST 2018 House of Commons). In simple terms, the Tempest is a Typhoon replacement project.

The program is not some after thought because there is nothing else better to do. Every responsible government has a duty to address its security needs and some programs do take a long time to bear fruit as would be with the Tempest program. We are having this conversation because there is transparency on what the British government intends to achieve over time

The Strategy lays out an ambitious timeline leading up to an initial operating capability of 2035:

• End 2018: a strategic outline business case

• Mid-2019: initial assessment of international collaboration options

• End 2020: early decisions for capability acquisition (capability, partnership approach, cost and delivery schedule)

• 2025: final investment decisions

• 2035: initial Operating Capability

Based on the timeline, don't expect much clarity or fidelity on the program because it is early days.

As to your question on what had been spent. I don't know but if I were to guess - insignificant given where the program is in the timeline.

Officially the following is what we know.

The Prime Minister said the Future Combat Air System Technology Initiative (FCAS TI) will deliver over £2bn pounds of investment up to 2025. (Prime Minister’s speech at Farnborough International Airshow, Prime Minister’s Office, 16 July 2018)

The Combat Air Strategy suggests the £2bn will come jointly from Government and industry:

The 2015 Strategic Defence and Security Review also initiated the Future Combat Air System Technology Initiative to bridge this gap [between the end of Typhoon production in the 2020s and production on new aircraft]. This enables over £2Bn of joint Government and industry investment in sustaining and enhancing key skills and capacity into the 2020s. By continuing to implement this policy, including the critical next phase of the National Programme, we will provide investment in key UK design engineering skills and a means to generate UK Intellectual Property. This will help to maintain long-term choice for future UK Combat Air system acquisition and ensure a major role for UK industry in delivering the systems that succeed Typhoon.

The RAF’s Chief of staff for capability says are “50:50 funding arrangements on key elements of the programme with industry”. (Farnborough 2018: Team Tempest outlines future combat air strategies and technologies”, Jane’s Defence Weekly, 17 July 2018)

That said, I thinik the initial number is inadequate relative to what we know were spent on the F-22 and F-35 development.

This would have been SDF's "post of the day" yesterday! nice summary Mr. Brumby!
 

Pmichael

Junior Member
It's funny how that 2bn is suddenly not dedicated for Tempest anymore and also not just government money.
It's also not enough to do anything meaningful.

The spin from the British side is comedically.
 
It's funny how that 2bn is suddenly not dedicated for Tempest anymore and also not just government money.
It's also not enough to do anything meaningful.

The spin from the British side is comedically.
Did you actually bother to read the broad timelines?

...
now I looked at what looks like a farce; I quote Mrs. May (who incidentally is gone with wind by now):

So today I can announce that the government will join with BAE Systems, Leonardo, MBDA and Rolls Royce to fund the next phase of the Future Combat Air System Technology Initiative through a ground-breaking partnership known as ‘Team Tempest.’ This will deliver over £2 billion pounds of investment up to 2025, and help secure the long-term future of our Combat Air industry as we lay the groundwork for the Typhoon successor programme.

end of quote (
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)

so those nonexistent two billion quid are kind of pooled?!
how much HM Treasury would contribute to those nonexistent two billion quid? LOL
 

Pmichael

Junior Member
The Engineer actually wrote a very insightful article about what actually is real and what is PR a year ago.

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UK being a leading nation in whatever is a standard sentence in British PR statements those days - like whatever USA does is a 'gamechanger'.
What we know about Tempest as a result of the acquisition programme is years behind the Franch-German FCAS, while being supposed to be finished half a decade earlier. This is interesting.

Another interesting article is also:
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SamuraiBlue

Captain
I can't believe Japan invests a large amount of money into the XF9 engine and 3d thrust vectoring just to pay for a RR developement. While RR has very own ambitions as well of course.

At best something like the Sweden deal happens and there will be a MoU for synergy effects for specific subsystems but then the question would be what would UK provides what Lockheed can't.
Two engines can co-exist by creating variants.
The British can develop a RR variant while Japan can develop a XF9 variant with both sides developing common components that has nothing to do with the engine.
 

Brumby

Major
Upon completion of Project Centurion moving on to Project Evolution as a bridge to Project Tempest

The Royal Air Force is planning to have the Typhoon in service until 2040. To replace capabilities that would have been lost with the
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, the RAF and BAE Systems started Project Centurion, integrating MBDA’s Meteor, Brimstone and
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missiles on the Typhoon FGR4 fleet in 47 months. BAE Systems and the 41 Squadron (RAF’s test and evaluation squadron) are already working on the next iteration of Project Centurion,
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in order to optimize its operation by Typhoon pilots and easing their workload. According to Flynn, the integration will be completed by the end of next year. Work is also underway on a new version of the Pirate system, the FLIR/IRST (Forward Looking InfraRed/InfraRed Search and Track) sensor installed in front of the Typhoon’s cockpit, and the new BAE Striker II HMD (Helmet Mounted Display) helmet.

Another interesting system being integrated is the Leonardo BriteCloud Expendable Active Decoy, a compact active radar countermeasure designed to be deployed from standard chaff/flare dispensers instead of being deployed from dedicated pods like the one
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. The small canister, with the same size of a soda can, has spring-loaded fins that open automatically to stabilize the decoy when is deployed and contains a miniaturized radio-frequency (RF) jammer, based on Digital RF Memory (DRFM), that is meant to attract and incoming radar-guided missile away from the aircraft. 33 BriteCloud rounds were dispensed from Typhoons of the 41 Squadron against simulated threats during
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. The RAF is planning to declare the Initial Operational Capability for the system by the end of the year.

Further improvements will be introduced by the Long Term Evolution program announced by Eurofighter and NETMA (NATO Eurofighter & Tornado Management Agency)
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. The program, aimed at the evolution of both the aircraft and the EJ200 engine, will span a total of 19 months for the aircraft and 9 months for the engine elements.

Flynn said there are more than 50 candidate technologies being considered by the evolution review, including advanced multi-spectral sensors and high performance tactical datalinks to improve the mission system architecture, upgrades to the Praetorian Defensive Aids Sub System (DASS), new cockpit displays and controls for a better human-machine interface, new advanced weapons and adaptive power and cooling techniques to improve the operational flexibility and better engine performance, especially regarding thrust, range, survivability and control systems.

Some of those potential upgrades could be extended also to the Tempest sixth-generation fighter and vice versa, making them more interoperable.

Source :
U.K. To Receive Its Final Eurofighter Typhoon By The End Of The Year While Eyeing New Upgrades
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Brumby

Major
Project Evolution

upload_2019-8-26_13-56-44.png

Mission System Architecture: The Eurofighter Typhoon already has one of the world’s most advanced Electronic Warfare systems. The LTE study will reinforce this by supporting the generation, transmission and utilisation of ever-increasing amounts of digital data both onboard (via advanced multi-spectral sensors) and offboard (via high performance tactical datalinks), whilst remaining resilient to new and emerging threats, including cyber. This will maintain Eurofighter’s ability to operate in the highly contested and congested future operating environment.

The Praetorian Defensive Aids Sub System (DASS): Looking at potential future DASS requirements out to 2050, enabling Typhoon to cope faster, easier and more affordably with new requirements to counter threats as they arise in the future.

The Human-Machine Interface: Refreshed cockpit displays and controls which will enable more demanding missions in the future, whilst ensuring full interoperability with cooperating assets in the air and over land and sea.

Operational Flexibility: Applying new adaptive power and cooling techniques and facilitating the agile integration of advanced weapons, thereby enabling more flexible store configurations to be flown.

Engine Performance: In terms of the EJ200 engine, the focus is on four key areas: thrust growth; range and persistence with increased parts life; survivability as well as control system enhancements.
 

Pmichael

Junior Member
Two engines can co-exist by creating variants.
The British can develop a RR variant while Japan can develop a XF9 variant with both sides developing common components that has nothing to do with the engine.

So you are telling me to seperate the most expensive subsystem of a plane? Did you think that through?

Even ignoring the old aircraft design rule that the engine, size, weight, fuel consumption, thrust, thrust to weight ratio etc., determines the entire aircraft design.
 
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