Trade War with China

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Just wanted to reiterate again: if the EU cannot even be brought onboard for Iran sanctions, how can anybody hope that they would bend the knee on trade with China? The EU has its own interests, is composed of many great nations with proud histories and cultural heritages, do not see eye to eye with the US-UK on a great variety of issues, and is not merely a satellite orbiting the Ango-American sphere. Particularly, right wing political sentiments sweeping across Europe, though ironically similar to the Trumpism, want anything but acquiescence to US demands.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
From the New York Times. Basically saying what is the point of other countries negotiating a trade deal with the US?

Heroes of the Great Patriotic Trade War
New York Times
By
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People can’t take America seriously anymore.

I’d like to make an important announcement to New York retailers: NEW JERSEY HAS AGREED TO IMMEDIATELY BEGIN BUYING LARGE QUANTITIES OF WHITEFISH SALAD FROM OUR GREAT PATRIOT GOURMET MARKETS.

What’s that you say? There was no such agreement? New Jersey doesn’t even have any kind of centralized purchasing mechanism for food products? I say fake news! Conspiracy by the deep state!

O.K., you know that I’m not serious. But Donald Trump was serious when he tweeted this:

090619krugman2-articleLarge-v2.png


This tweet raises two immediate questions:
1. Why, like so many Trump tweets, does it read like a bad translation from the original Russian?
2. What the heck is he talking about?

There was, after all, no mention of agricultural products in the statement of agreement. And Mexico, while a big buyer of U.S. farm goods, is a market economy: private businesses, not government officials, decide how much Iowa corn Mexico will buy in a given year.

For what it’s worth, my guess is that Trump vaguely remembered the terms of an abortive trade deal with China, which he claimed included a commitment by China to buy 5 million tons of U.S. soybeans. If my guess is right, Trump is confusing Mexico with China, and has forgotten that talks with China have broken down. Not a good look for the man with his finger on the nuclear button, but whatever.

But leave worries about Trump’s mental state on one side, and think about how much events like the Mexican standoff weaken America’s position in the world.

To be a great power, of course you need the material basis for power — a big economy, a military big enough to make you a force to be reckoned with. But you also need to be a country others can take seriously — a nation that stands by its promises, but also makes good on its threats.
So think about what just happened.

First, Trump recently negotiated a trade deal with Mexico — a deal barely different from the previous deal, which Trump called the “worst in history,” but put that on one side. The whole point of trade deals is that they’re supposed to provide some certainty. The USMCA, like NAFTA, amounts to a promise by all three participants that they won’t arbitrarily impose new barriers to cross-border trade.

Then Trump went ahead and threatened major new tariffs on Mexico, not because it had violated its trade agreements, but because he didn’t like something that was happening on the border, a situation that has nothing to do with trade policy. So the USMCA appears, in practice, to be a solemn promise by the U.S. government not to impose tariffs on Mexican products … unless it feels like it.

If that’s what you get out of making a deal with America, why bother?

And then, after all the dire warnings of what would happen if Mexico didn’t give Trump what he wanted, Trump appears to have backed down in return for a declaration that Mexico will do pretty much exactly what it had already promised to do before the threats.

Now, the business world is extremely pleased that the trade war appears to have been called off. But it does look as if a Trump threat is worth about as much as a Trump promise: There’s no particular reason to believe that he’ll actually go through with it.

The only thing we can be sure of is that whatever happens, Trump will claim to have achieved a great victory.

In the case of the Mexican standoff, this may not seem too bad. But think about what it means when foreign leaders know that the president of the United States is:
(a) gullible
(b) easily susceptible to flattery and
(c) eager to proclaim victory, and unwilling to admit that he didn’t actually get anything significant.

Basically, this turns America into a systematic chump. Hold a summit, flatter Trump’s vanity, let him issue a communiqué claiming vast achievement, then go on doing whatever you wanted to do. Just ask North Korea’s Kim, who snookered Trump into thinking he’d made major concessions, went right back to building up his nuclear attack capacity, and still gets praised by Trump as our allies watch in horror.

Again, it’s a good thing that we seem to have avoided a Mexican trade war for now. But the China trade war still appears to be on. And I’m worried about confrontation with Europe, partly because European nations are democracies with free presses, which makes it harder for them to give Trump the kind of imaginary victories he craves.

In any case, the bottom line from the Mexico fiasco is that the U.S. is now significantly less credible and less respected than it was a few weeks ago. And things will probably keep getting worse.

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AndrewS

Brigadier
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Just wanted to reiterate again: if the EU cannot even be brought onboard for Iran sanctions, how can anybody hope that they would bend the knee on trade with China? The EU has its own interests, is composed of many great nations with proud histories and cultural heritages, do not see eye to eye with the US-UK on a great variety of issues, and is not merely a satellite orbiting the Ango-American sphere. Particularly, right wing political sentiments sweeping across Europe, though ironically similar to the Trumpism, want anything but acquiescence to US demands.

It was France, Germany and the UK which were pushing for Europe to ignore the Iran sanctions, with a new Special Purpose Vehicle.
 
It was France, Germany and the UK which were pushing for Europe to ignore the Iran sanctions, with a new Special Purpose Vehicle.
So even UK, the most aligned major European to the US and least integrated with EU (possibly eventually completely non integrated), is resisting US insistence for sanctions on Iran. Similarly, UK seems to be hesistating concerning the Huawei ban. ARM, based in UK, is reacting to Huawei sanctions by planning to reduce it's US based R and D operations. These countries are not going to put Trump's wishes above their own economic well being, national interests, and sovereignity. The consequences of US actions in the Middle East definitely do not help with EU goodwill towards the US, and military involvement in the Middle East happens to be the last time they got dragged into US wishes.

I believe China should take the initiative and be proactive about negotiating a fair trade framework with the EU that reforms and liberalizes the economy and addresses any major concerns the EU may have about the mutual economic and trade relationship. Eventually this could be offered to US too, providing a step for the US to step down without losing face. Then Trump can tweet that he made his deal, and the Chinese won't see it as caving in to Trump.
 
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vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
I believe China should take the initiative and be proactive about negotiating a fair trade framework with the EU that reforms and liberalizes the economy and addresses any major concerns the EU may have about the mutual economic and trade relationship. Eventually this could be offered to US too, providing a step for the US to step down without losing face. Then Trump can tweet that he made his deal, and the Chinese won't see it as caving in to Trump.

I guess you missed our member @ZeEa5KPul's post

https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/posts/557459/
 

Market based economy is the most efficient for growth past the initial and intermediate stages of economic development. State involvement and protection are absolutely necessary for the incubation stage of economic development, as an economy moves through the low, lower middle income, and upper middle income stages, with the corresponding shift in focus from primary to secondary and ultimately up to tertiary sectors. But as an economy begins the final step to becoming a high income advanced economy, innovation driven growth becomes more important. At this stage, open markets and competition become more efficient at resource allocation than state involvement. This is not to say that state involvement need to go away completely, it just need to be curbed to a point to give private enterprise the room and space to grow and innovate. This trend of shifting from heavy state involvement and protectionism to less state involvement in favor of market forces and open markets as an economy develops and advances can be seen in the development histories of Japan, SK, and Taiwan this century and even to that of the US and Germany in the prior century. On other hand, the USSR had achieved tremendous growth as it industrialized (even with non optimal policies), yet ultimately stagnated and could not keep pace with the West in continued development and advancement. Similarly, today there are many economies today trapped at the middle income level because they could not adjust their policies to foster innovation driven growth. China's execution of its economic policies and strategies have been perfect up to this point, but this does not mean it's existing policies does not need to change for the future. Planning ahead for and adapting policy as China traveled through the different stages of growth is the reason behind China's explosive and near constant growth over the past four decades, and this is something they need to continue as China prepares to make the final transition into an advanced, high income economy.
 

Just4Fun

Junior Member
Registered Member
The trade war shows China’s economic dream is dying. Beijing now has a choice: open up or stagnate

This piece is a hollow and shallow preach written by a neo-con die-hard. It is a mixture of arrogance, ignorance, misinformation and delusion.
The poster should indicate that this piece is from SCMP, published in its Opinion sector on June 11, 2019.

China will have to accept a US-dominated world order or step into the slow lane. There will be no Pacific century and all those
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will not be righted, certainly not this time.

Unlike many Westerners who don't know this Sino-US trade war can, and should, be traced back at least to the 1840s, the author, Mr. Greame Maxton, correctly recognize it is the continuation of the Opium Wars of the 1840s. Old China accepted Western dominance, but ended up in dismay, devastation and havoc. But time has changed. New China led by CCP is on its way to right the historical wrongs caused by Western imperialists to China and to many other countries during past centuries.

America has played its
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hand very well.

From "fire and fury" against NK, to "official end" against Iran, to run-away from Syria, to Trump's desperation to beg Xi's endorsement for re-election in 2020, I don't see any ace cards in Americans' hands. What I have seen is a clown whose ugly performance is only speeding up America Empire's decline.


It is now clear that Huawei, China’s big hope in hi-tech, along with ZTE and several other IT firms, are not much of a force to reckon with. Without US hardware, operating licences and software, these firms have been beached.

When Huawei ban is cited as an ace card, you know how misinformed, how delusional and how under-educated Mr. Maxton is. I feel sorry for SCMP to publish this piece of trash. Really feel sorry I do.

Huawei is not just alive, but lives well in the face of so-called Killer Huawei ban. It has released its own Ark OS and will release Hongmeng OS very soon. The Huawei ban is a timely stimulant for many China's high tech start-ups, and a nightmare for many US established tech firms. Google, Microsoft, QCMM, MU, ITEL, to name a few.

They are at least 10 years behind technologically and cannot develop the skills needed to survive in anything like their current form. A
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does not solve this problem. Two countries without cutting-edge technology does not add up to much.

Hype the so-called Western technology superiority again. That Huawei didn't release its Ark OS, and Hongmeng OS for a longtime dosen't mean it doesn't have the capacity to do so. It is just because Huawei was playing the game following Western rules. Once the rules are broken by the US, Huawei is free from the restrictions of Western rules. So, it begins to release its own OS. The illusion of "(China is ) at least 10 years behind technologically" crumbles overnight.

Ultimately, it wants China to conform to the Western liberal free-market system with an end of one-party rule. “Do it our way” is the message, and remember that America is the unrivalled global superpower.

LMFAO. Forgive me if I sound rude. No one remembers "that America is the unrivalled global superpower“. Has anyone remember an "unrivalled global superpower" bowed to a tiny backward country like NK in the entire human history? Rocket-boy Kim Jong-en not only just insulted Trump, he virtually poo-pooed at Trump's face in front the whole world when he denounced Trump as a "dotard" through social media on America's National Day.

Just do something about ending NK's one-party rule, or ending Iranian mullah regime, or Venezuela left-wing regime, or Syrian Assad regime, or Cube one-party regime,... please, Mr. Maxton. I can't wait to see how powerful the "unrivalled global superpower" America is. If you can't beat NK which had insulted your dear leader Trump publicly, forget about anything about China.

But the Huawei problem has revealed the hollowness of these hopes.

When Google began to ask for exemption from Huawei ban, it has really revealed the hollowness of America technological superiority.

So what comes next?

No good card in Trump's hand at all. If he had one, he would have scored in his NK gamble, or in his Iran game, or in his Syria game, or in his Venezuela game,...

As for China, it is universally agreed that you would never get through negotiation what you couldn't get in the battle field. (世间普遍认同,战场上得不到的东西,你休想通过谈判得到。) Many Westerners have seemingly forget this law conveniently while they know they can't win a shooting against China in Asia. Those people are so stupid that they thinks they could use high tariffs to pressure China to give up its sovereignty on issues such as territory (Taiwan), currency (RMB), economic policies (SOEs),... etc. They even wet-dream that they could force China to accept a regime change through trade war. Oh, Boy, your stupidity, ignorance and arrogance are beyond description. You need win a hot war to have China give up its sovereignty, as the British did in the 1840s.

Trade war is nothing. Economic war is nothing. Force is the ultimate answer to all disputes, trade disputes included. It is true to both the US and China. If the US can't win the Korean war when China was in its weakest times, forget about any war against China.

The choice between accepting one humiliation or the another will have consequences for Chinese society for decades, and for the rest of the world.

The choice for the US to accept China's rise will have far-reaching consequences for the Americans for decades and for the rest of the world.

There is a distinguishing difference between the US and the British when they were the king of the world. The British Empire had never abused its financial power when its currency, the British pound sterling, was world currency. The British pound sterling was tied to gold. And the British gov't had never over-supplied the British pound at its will. The British's rigorous observation to financial laws allows it to live a relatively peaceful civilian life after its pound sterling was dethroned, though it has to watch its territory slowly shrinks.

On the other hand, the US is habitual financial defrauder. The US was lucky enough to walk away from its war debts after it lost the Koran war and Vietnam war. It did so by defaulting the dollar through abandoning gold standard in 1971, thus tearing up the Breton Forest Accord to pieces. It will not be so lucky for the Americans if the US loses another war to China in Asia. This time, the US will be dismembered by the sheer gravity of its national debts and the pure squeezing force of dollar demise.

China, only China, has the market capacity and financial ability to prevent the over-supplied dollar from collapse. And China's help is crucial for the US. With China's help, the US can become another British Empire, living a quiet post-abdication life after the dollar is dethroned. Without China's help, the US will become another ancient Roman Empire after the dollar is dethroned, leaving only piles and piles rocks in Washington for future tourists to watch and ponder, just as those rocks left in the city of Rome.
 

SpicySichuan

Senior Member
Registered Member
How would a rerun of the Korean War look today?
But any talks of war between the U.S. and China must consider the likely possibility of a nuclear exchange, which would be a lose-lose scenario. Even without a nuclear war, third parties like Russia would simply step in a fill the vacuum after both the U.S. and China are weakened (we are talking about both the U.S. and Chinese navies being sent to the bottom of the ocean and no longer able to project their power after the war).
 
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