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TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
soon F-35 "Marvel" will take over in the CAS role, no?
B1B is a Strategic bomber not a CAS platrform. They bomb. They Flatten Grid squares, They make parking lots and Thank the lord on High they have not needed to but could level a city.
The Intended replacement is the B 21 This is because Despite it all Supersonic bombers like the B1B are far more expensive and have lost alot of ground vs the B2 and even Conventional B52.
 
B1B is a Strategic bomber not a CAS platrform. ...
... while
B-1B Lancer's Evolving Mission Includes More Close-Air Support
14 Jan 2018
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"It was always intended to loiter for hours above a battlefield, swiftly maneuver at a moment's notice and, of course, bring the bombs.

But in the early stages of the
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's life, no one thought the long-range bomber would be a leading close-air support mission aircraft dominating bomb runs or bellying up to U.S. and coalition forces on the ground. ..." etc.

LOL plus I think you're dodging Today at 2:41 PM
question
soon F-35 "Marvel" will take over in the CAS role, no?
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
... while
B-1B Lancer's Evolving Mission Includes More Close-Air Support
14 Jan 2018
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"It was always intended to loiter for hours above a battlefield, swiftly maneuver at a moment's notice and, of course, bring the bombs.

But in the early stages of the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
's life, no one thought the long-range bomber would be a leading close-air support mission aircraft dominating bomb runs or bellying up to U.S. and coalition forces on the ground. ..." etc.

LOL plus I think you're dodging Today at 2:41 PM
question
soon F-35 "Marvel" will take over in the CAS role, no?
That's because I thought you were posing it Rhetorically to try and rationalize some perceived flaw in the F35 and make it out to be a Wonder Weapon. But if you want an answer
Then yes and no. Yes F35 will take a number of CAS missions but no not totally. F35 is not going to take on every CAS mission under the sun. F15E and A10 are still in the Mix along side AH64 and Ac130J and It's not a Strategic or Tactical bomber so it's not replacing the B1B either. F35 a multirole fighter like the F16 before it that means occasionally running CAS missions and Strike missions.
But this Bone Gun B1 concept is pie in the Sky. Almost Dale Brown stuff.
 
That's because I thought you were posing it Rhetorically to try and rationalize some perceived flaw in the F35 and make it out to be a Wonder Weapon. But if you want an answer
Then yes and no. Yes F35 will take a number of CAS missions but no not totally. F35 is not going to take on every CAS mission under the sun. F15E and A10 are still in the Mix along side AH64 and Ac130J and It's not a Strategic or Tactical bomber so it's not replacing the B1B either. F35 a multirole fighter like the F16 before it that means occasionally running CAS missions and Strike missions.
But this Bone Gun B1 concept is pie in the Sky. Almost Dale Brown stuff.
OK OK but I don't understand if you were denying CAS role of the Lancer Today at 3:10 PM
B1B is a Strategic bomber not a CAS platrform. They bomb. They Flatten Grid squares, They make parking lots and Thank the lord on High they have not needed to but could level a city.
The Intended replacement is the B 21 This is because Despite it all Supersonic bombers like the B1B are far more expensive and have lost alot of ground vs the B2 and even Conventional B52.
?!

close to the top of my "b-1b+close+air+support" google search is
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in addition to what I posted Today at 3:53 PM
I mean
B-1B Lancer's Evolving Mission Includes More Close-Air Support
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TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
OK OK but I don't understand if you were denying CAS role of the Lancer Today at 3:10 PM
?!
It's a difference in definition. I view B1B in this mission more for battlefield air interdiction, rather then true CAS. US Doctrine though doesn't recognize that difference
CAS is there is a Target Directly in the way of Allied forces and placing them under treat. BAI is more there is an enemy that will be in position to effect an Allied formation. It's the Difference of My position is under Fire vs This area is loaded with enemies.
I mean if you are facing just a well dug in machine gun nest why call in a B1B? A scalpel vs a Broad sword. I mean if you need the B1B for support it's a Fairly big deal.
Bombers like B1B when used for this mission before would target enemy Brigades and Divisions. for the B1B to do CAS pretty much demands use of Smart weapons.
 
It's a difference in definition. I view B1B in this mission more for battlefield air interdiction, rather then true CAS. US Doctrine though doesn't recognize that difference
CAS is there is a Target Directly in the way of Allied forces and placing them under treat. BAI is more there is an enemy that will be in position to effect an Allied formation. It's the Difference of My position is under Fire vs This area is loaded with enemies.
I mean if you are facing just a well dug in machine gun nest why call in a B1B? A scalpel vs a Broad sword. I mean if you need the B1B for support it's a Fairly big deal.
Bombers like B1B when used for this mission before would target enemy Brigades and Divisions. for the B1B to do CAS pretty much demands use of Smart weapons.
just to finish here: I recalled the discussion after Oct 26, 2015
found a moment ago, right now I can't watch the six-minutes video inside
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60 Minutes films live bombing of ISIS target
Correspondent David Martin gets an unprecedented look inside the command center where the U.S. is conducting its air war against ISIS

dated Oct 23

airwarotblog.jpg
which included Oct 28, 2015
Well, if the B-1 is in the air at the time with the ordinance...and the sniper is killing good guys...then you use what is there to take him down.

Would ne no different if it was Dutch F-16s, US Navy F-18s, or Jordanian or other allied aircraft in the air.

The call comes in and you use what is available. The B-1 is there...perhaps he had some SDBs loaded up. Whatever.
I won't bother with finding you that vid describing how the Lancer took out a sniper, as I suspect you still wouldn't call it "true CAS"
LOL!
 
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Today at 8:22 AM
Apr 26, 2018
now
Niger investigation: What went wrong, what’s being done to fix it
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and now I read Military.com story
How They Fell: Army Team 'Fought to the End' in Niger Ambush
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They thought they could handle it at first -- no immediate need to call for backup or air support.

Operational Detachment Alpha Team 3212, also known as "Team Ouallam" for their base in Niger, had just left the village of Tongo Tongo near the Mali border on the morning of Oct. 4 in a convoy of seven unarmored pickups.
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Twelve members of the
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's Third
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Group were in three of the vehicles and about 30 Nigerien troops were in the other four. They were on a dirt track headed south about 120 miles to Camp Ouallam at the end of a joint patrol that began on Oct. 3.

At 11:40 a.m., as the patrol was about the length of a football field outside Tongo Tongo, they began taking small-arms fire from a treeline to their east.

They tried a textbook maneuver to end the threat. They worked around to the south, intending to outflank the enemy and sweep the treeline, but were forced to retreat.

The attack built in intensity as enemy fighters on motorcycles threatened to overrun them. The Americans and their Nigerien partners fought back fiercely, but they were outnumbered and outgunned.

The first call for air support came 53 minutes after they started taking fire.

They made several attempts to break out of the kill zone but had to retreat to a final defensive position.

About two hours after the initial attack, they were preparing to make a "last stand" when French Mirage fighters arrived overhead and made several "tree-top level" passes. The French jets did not drop any bombs for fear of hitting friendly forces, but the low passes were effective in scattering the enemy.

The battle of Tongo Tongo was over, and the search for four fallen members of Team Ouallam would begin.

They were: Sgt. La David Johnson, 25, of Miami Gardens, Florida; Staff Sgt. Bryan C. Black, 35, of Puyallup, Washington; Staff Sgt. Jeremiah W. Johnson, 39, of Springboro, Ohio; and Staff Sgt. Dustin M. Wright, 29, of Lyons, Georgia.

An
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in Niger last Oct. 4 was released Thursday by the Pentagon and U.S. Africa Command.

The account was in the form of an unclassified eight-page summary of a classified 3,600-page Article 15-6 fact-finding investigation ordered by
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Gen. Thomas Waldhauser, the AFRICOM commander, and led by his chief of staff, Army Maj. Gen. Roger Cloutier.

In addition to the summary, the Pentagon released an abbreviated version of an animated video prepared by AFRICOM depicting the firefight. The version shown to defense reporters was 10 minutes long, compared to the 22-minute version shown to members of Congress.

According to the summary, the video, and statements by Waldhauser and Cloutier at the Pentagon briefing Thursday, the members of Team Ouallam were not wearing body armor when they left Tongo Tongo. They quickly put it on as the firefight began.

The patrol's leader, an Army captain who was not identified in the summary; the Nigerien commander; and several Nigerien soldiers worked their way around from the south in an effort to outflank the attackers. They killed at least four of the attackers before they were forced back by the larger enemy unit.

"Realizing that the team was significantly outnumbered by a well-trained force, the Team Ouallam commander returned to the vehicles and ordered everyone to break contact and withdraw to the south," the summary said.

They threw smoke grenades to cover the move, but two Nigerien vehicles and one U.S. vehicle from which Staff Sgts. Black, Wright and Jeremiah Johnson were fighting could not disengage.

"They were last seen by team members actively engaging the enemy from defensive positions near their vehicle and preparing to withdraw with the rest of the team," the summary said.

The investigators learned that Wright jumped back into the vehicle and slowly began driving south while Staff Sgts. Black and Jeremiah Johnson moved alongside, providing covering fire.

"During the movement, enemy small-arms fire hit Staff Sgt. Black, killing him instantly," the summary said. Wright and Jeremiah Johnson went to Black's side, firing back at the enemy, but began to pull back as the enemy closed in.

"Approximately 85 meters from the vehicle, enemy small-arms fire hit [Jeremiah Johnson], severely wounding him," the summary said. "Wright stopped, returned to Staff. Sgt. Jeremiah Johnson, and continued to engage the enemy until each was shot and killed by small-arms fire."

Staff Sgts. Black, Wright and Jeremiah Johnson "were never captured alive by the enemy," the summary said. "As enemy fighters advanced through the ambush site, they fired several additional bursts into the bodies of the three soldiers."

Sgt. La David Johnson's Last Stand at a Thorn Tree
From the truck bed of his vehicle, Sgt. La David Johnson sprayed the treeline with fire from an
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machine gun. When he ran out of ammunition for the M240, he fought on with an M2010 sniper rifle, the summary and video said.

He was in a prone position in the rear of the vehicle with two Nigerien soldiers when the order to withdraw came. Johnson acknowledged the order and attempted to get behind the wheel, but heavy fire drove him back. As the enemy pressed in, La David Johnson and the two Nigerien soldiers began pulling back on foot to the west.

About 460 meters from the truck, one of the Nigerien soldiers was shot and killed. The second Nigerien soldier was shot and killed about another 110 meters further on.

Sgt. Johnson "continued to evade, running west for an additional 450 meters before eventually seeking cover under a thorny tree," the summary said. From there, he "continued to return fire against the pursuing enemy."

The attackers brought up a truck-mounted heavy machine gun and raked the tree, the summary said. "Dismounted enemy then maneuvered on [Sgt. Johnson], killing him with small-arms fire."

"The enemy did not capture Sgt. Johnson alive," the summary said in disputing several reports that circulated immediately after the ambush.

His hands "were not bound and he was not executed but was killed in action while actively engaging the enemy," the summary said.

Three Officers Could Be Cited for Disciplinary Action
Waldhauser said "there will be awards for valor" for actions during the ambush.

The four fallen troops "gave their last full measure of devotion to our country and died with honor while actively engaging the enemy," the summary said.

Waldhauser also said there will be "accountability" for command failures that were factors in the ambush.

"There are three cases there that will be dealt with by [Special Operations Command]" to determine whether disciplinary action or a court-martial is merited, he said.

Waldhauser did not specify the three cases, but the report and statements by Waldhauser and Cloutier singled out two captains, and a superior officer.

One of the captains led the patrol and worked with the second captain to develop a concept of operations (CONOP) for a mission to go after a militant in northwestern Niger suspected in the kidnapping of an American aid worker. However, they submitted a CONOP that was copied from a previous routine reconnaissance patrol.

At the Pentagon briefing, Cloutier was asked if the captains had lied. "That's not what the evidence indicates," he said, but Cloutier and Waldhauser said there were "processes" throughout the chain of command that need addressing.

In summing up the findings of the investigation, Cloutier said, "I think the first point is that all of our soldiers fought valiantly that day."

"There were a series of contributing factors to what occurred in Tongo Tongo," he said in reference to the command failures, "but not one of those contributing factors are the direct cause of the enemy attack in Tongo Tongo.The direct cause of the enemy attack in Tongo Tongo is that the enemy achieved tactical surprise there and our forces were outnumbered approximately three to one."
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Carlos Hathcock the Legendary USMC Sniper used a M2 Browning Machine gun for a number of his kills, Simo Hayah the Finish White Death used a Submachine gun Does that Make those a Sniper Rifles?
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
just to finish here: I recalled the discussion after Oct 26, 2015

which included Oct 28, 2015

I won't bother with finding you that vid describing how the Lancer took out a sniper, as I suspect you still wouldn't call it "true CAS"
LOL!
Generally CAS has been defined to mean not only hitting bad guys very "close" to the good guys, but has also meant that the aircraft had to get in close to do the job,and then have decent sustainment/loiter time so it could be there for a wahile.

That';s why they like the A-10 so much. The old A-7s were iked for this also because they could hang around for some time and keep supporting the good guys oif more bad guys were around.

Yes, the B-1B, F-35, F-15E and others can do the mission if they are in the area and have the right ordinance and that could mean hitting enemies that are "danger close" if they have the right precision ordinance.

But they may not be able to hang around very long eother...depending on where refueling may take place, how long they have been in the air, etc.

I believe you use whatever you can as quikly as it can get on target in such situations...I like it most when an A-10 or A-7 or other bord with several pylons full of good ordinance is nearby and can stay nearby for a good length of time. That is optimal CAS.
 
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