PRC/PLAN Laser and Rail Gun Development Thread
- Thread starter SinoSoldier
- Start date
Jura The idiot
General
just a byproduct of the visit to dental hygienist (was thinking about it before I went there, tried to calculate the contours while in the chair, now created the graph); thought I might share LOL
I don't think a striking velocity over M10 would be realistic, neither a shell of more than 8", that's how I picked the ranges:
I don't think a striking velocity over M10 would be realistic, neither a shell of more than 8", that's how I picked the ranges:
According to the Chinese text material, the projectile weight is 25kg (used w/ prototype railgun since 2006). The goal is to standardize projectile weight = 50kg. In other words the standard weight could be two grades: 25kg for the small, 50kg for the standard if they finally achieve the goal.
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Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
From Henri K he is late this time
Coilgun? Railgun? Chinese navy starts sea trials with super-gun
The subject was mentioned very briefly here in September 2016, in a folder entitled "The Chinese Army is interested in Maglev", where we talk about an electromagnetic gun development project directly funded by the Chinese Navy. Finally things went much faster than our estimates since the industrial model of a railgun, or coilgun, is now installed on a Chinese landing craft which is obviously used as a test bench, and that the sea trials of this have already started, at least for the navigation part.
The story begins in an almost incognito way, in early January, when two amateur photos of the 936 Haiyangshan ship , an old Class 072 III tank landing ship that has been in service for 22 years now, have been published on the Chinese social network Weibo.
Enthusiasts were curious to see that the 37mm double barrel originally installed at the bow was replaced by something much bigger but hidden under tarpaulins.
Several 20-foot (?) Containers were also on the large deck of the building that moved 4,800 tons full load, but no one at the time knew exactly what it was. We only know that the pictures were taken in Shuangliu (双 柳), which is one of the Wuchang shipyard sites that has been located in Wuhan since 1934.
It is then by growing several local sources that one learns that the ship actually arrived in Wuhan in October 2017 where work of transformation is undertaken.
At first glance, there is virtually nothing unusual about the building 936 Haiyangshan , apart from the replacement barrel (see marking ⑦ bottom) appears to be unusually large for a vessel of this size. But if we take a closer look, we see that the old Chinese amphibious boat has undergone changes like no other.
We first note that the bow doors ( ⑨ ), which allow to leave troops and rolling stock when the ship performs a "plageage", were completely sealed and welded. An observation booth ( ② ) climbed to the top of the navigation bridge, on which an equipment ( ① ) of unknown function and pointing to the front was installed on top.
Three 20-foot containers ( ③ , ④ and ⑤ ), at least one of which is equipped with reversible air conditioning, which therefore indicates the presence of instruments or operators inside, are on deck, plus one fourth ( ⑧ ) which was put in front of the bridge and connected by many electric cables with the interior of the building.
This last container, in Belgian color, is reminiscent of a temporary electric generator.
Another LST Type 072III (Photo: Xinhua)
The main changes to the ship (Photos: 荆楚 沔 阳, Annotations: East Pendulum)
Until then, nothing seems to be able to be added. It was not until Friday, January 26, when the vessel was transferred to the main Wuchang shipyard site near Ying Wu Zhou Bridge (鹦鹉 洲 长江 大桥) that crosses the Yangtze River in Wuhan, so that passersby can finally have a glimpse of 936 Haiyangshan almost 'metamorphosed' .
Indeed, the tarpaulins being removed now, the mystery cannon at the bow with its large turret has finally unveiled under the eyes of the curious. The size of this turret is so large that it occupies almost the entire space at the bow of the ship.
It can also be seen that one of the containers previously on the deck is actually six side doors and this is reminiscent of some models of silent electric generator that are placed in a container for easy transport. It will be noted that the Belgian container installed in front of the superstructure in early January has now disappeared.
Another amateur photo is posted quickly and shows that the ship equipping the new gun system and mysterious containers has taken the "sea" (river), sign that the Chinese LST has already started its navigation tests and should soon go back to the sea to start shooting tests, traffic on the Yangtze River is very dense all day.
And we also have a clear view of this new Chinese naval gun thanks to another spotteur who was able to take the bow of the ship in close-up. We can see that the barrel tube, separated into two parts of different diameter, is actually supported by two hydraulic cylinders, probably to ensure more stability at the time of the shots.
Despite the rudimentary appearance with tarpaulins at the beginning of the transformation work, the turret now has a form "stealth", or at least worked, once mounted and it is more like a product than an experimental prototype.
Note also the presence of some tactical communication antennas, installed just behind the barrel.
Chinese LST at new location (Photos: AndrewTear)
So what can we draw from these photos?
In the first place, the weapon system of any kind present would be in the process of passing its validation phase, according to a former technical officer of the Chinese navy. Indeed, the very strict procedures defined by the Chinese Navy for testing at sea of arms automatically remove any possibility that it is a prototype, in which case it would not even have the opportunity to be installed on a ship currently in service.
Secondly, the choice to use an LST of 4,800 tonnes as a test rig ship while the Chinese Navy has at least two buildings dedicated to surface arming tests, the Type 909, could be explained by the fact that the gun under test requires a large number of equipment and therefore large volume for its operation. The large apron and the long upper deck of an LST can therefore satisfy this need but not in the case of a Type 909. It is for the same consideration that the US Navy had planned to use a fast transport vessel. JHSV as a test bench at sea for its future railgun.
It also suggests, indirectly, that the system that will pass its validation tests is not a simple conventional gun.
Then, one can ask the question to know why the transformation work is not done at the shipyard Hudong-Zhonghu in Shanghai, where the LST Type 072 III are built initially, but the shipyard Wuchang in the middle of China. The possible explanation is that Wuhan is the city where most of the major institutions that work on the project, such as the Chinese Navy Engineering University, are located, and the Wuchang Shipyard also has long experience in LST construction for years.
Coilgun? Railgun? Chinese navy starts sea trials with super-gun
The subject was mentioned very briefly here in September 2016, in a folder entitled "The Chinese Army is interested in Maglev", where we talk about an electromagnetic gun development project directly funded by the Chinese Navy. Finally things went much faster than our estimates since the industrial model of a railgun, or coilgun, is now installed on a Chinese landing craft which is obviously used as a test bench, and that the sea trials of this have already started, at least for the navigation part.
The story begins in an almost incognito way, in early January, when two amateur photos of the 936 Haiyangshan ship , an old Class 072 III tank landing ship that has been in service for 22 years now, have been published on the Chinese social network Weibo.
Enthusiasts were curious to see that the 37mm double barrel originally installed at the bow was replaced by something much bigger but hidden under tarpaulins.
Several 20-foot (?) Containers were also on the large deck of the building that moved 4,800 tons full load, but no one at the time knew exactly what it was. We only know that the pictures were taken in Shuangliu (双 柳), which is one of the Wuchang shipyard sites that has been located in Wuhan since 1934.
It is then by growing several local sources that one learns that the ship actually arrived in Wuhan in October 2017 where work of transformation is undertaken.
At first glance, there is virtually nothing unusual about the building 936 Haiyangshan , apart from the replacement barrel (see marking ⑦ bottom) appears to be unusually large for a vessel of this size. But if we take a closer look, we see that the old Chinese amphibious boat has undergone changes like no other.
We first note that the bow doors ( ⑨ ), which allow to leave troops and rolling stock when the ship performs a "plageage", were completely sealed and welded. An observation booth ( ② ) climbed to the top of the navigation bridge, on which an equipment ( ① ) of unknown function and pointing to the front was installed on top.
Three 20-foot containers ( ③ , ④ and ⑤ ), at least one of which is equipped with reversible air conditioning, which therefore indicates the presence of instruments or operators inside, are on deck, plus one fourth ( ⑧ ) which was put in front of the bridge and connected by many electric cables with the interior of the building.
This last container, in Belgian color, is reminiscent of a temporary electric generator.
Another LST Type 072III (Photo: Xinhua)
The main changes to the ship (Photos: 荆楚 沔 阳, Annotations: East Pendulum)
Until then, nothing seems to be able to be added. It was not until Friday, January 26, when the vessel was transferred to the main Wuchang shipyard site near Ying Wu Zhou Bridge (鹦鹉 洲 长江 大桥) that crosses the Yangtze River in Wuhan, so that passersby can finally have a glimpse of 936 Haiyangshan almost 'metamorphosed' .
Indeed, the tarpaulins being removed now, the mystery cannon at the bow with its large turret has finally unveiled under the eyes of the curious. The size of this turret is so large that it occupies almost the entire space at the bow of the ship.
It can also be seen that one of the containers previously on the deck is actually six side doors and this is reminiscent of some models of silent electric generator that are placed in a container for easy transport. It will be noted that the Belgian container installed in front of the superstructure in early January has now disappeared.
Another amateur photo is posted quickly and shows that the ship equipping the new gun system and mysterious containers has taken the "sea" (river), sign that the Chinese LST has already started its navigation tests and should soon go back to the sea to start shooting tests, traffic on the Yangtze River is very dense all day.
And we also have a clear view of this new Chinese naval gun thanks to another spotteur who was able to take the bow of the ship in close-up. We can see that the barrel tube, separated into two parts of different diameter, is actually supported by two hydraulic cylinders, probably to ensure more stability at the time of the shots.
Despite the rudimentary appearance with tarpaulins at the beginning of the transformation work, the turret now has a form "stealth", or at least worked, once mounted and it is more like a product than an experimental prototype.
Note also the presence of some tactical communication antennas, installed just behind the barrel.
Chinese LST at new location (Photos: AndrewTear)
So what can we draw from these photos?
In the first place, the weapon system of any kind present would be in the process of passing its validation phase, according to a former technical officer of the Chinese navy. Indeed, the very strict procedures defined by the Chinese Navy for testing at sea of arms automatically remove any possibility that it is a prototype, in which case it would not even have the opportunity to be installed on a ship currently in service.
Secondly, the choice to use an LST of 4,800 tonnes as a test rig ship while the Chinese Navy has at least two buildings dedicated to surface arming tests, the Type 909, could be explained by the fact that the gun under test requires a large number of equipment and therefore large volume for its operation. The large apron and the long upper deck of an LST can therefore satisfy this need but not in the case of a Type 909. It is for the same consideration that the US Navy had planned to use a fast transport vessel. JHSV as a test bench at sea for its future railgun.
It also suggests, indirectly, that the system that will pass its validation tests is not a simple conventional gun.
Then, one can ask the question to know why the transformation work is not done at the shipyard Hudong-Zhonghu in Shanghai, where the LST Type 072 III are built initially, but the shipyard Wuchang in the middle of China. The possible explanation is that Wuhan is the city where most of the major institutions that work on the project, such as the Chinese Navy Engineering University, are located, and the Wuchang Shipyard also has long experience in LST construction for years.
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Come on folks, CIWS stands for CLOSE IN Weapon System, even 10km range is pushing the envelope. Just as powder main guns have a secondary AA/"CIWS" purpose same here with an EM gun. One more hard kill active defense tool is always better than one less, thereby it also doesn't have to be the lone tool. Assuming detection, targeting, and guidance if any are managed just as effectively. This EM gun is a really exciting development, especially given the miss in terms of catching the news in a delayed manner, and it heralds a lot of possibilities for fun guesstimates as usual given the lack of information but let's try to keep it realistic.
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
(cont)
On the type of gun in question, three hypotheses are debated today - When some think that it is a new model of naval gun of very big caliber, well beyond 203 to 460 mm, of others evokes the possibility that it is a railgun or Chinese coilgun.
The former Chinese Navy technical officer mentioned above speaks of a third possibility which consists of a new mechanism to reload a cannon into shells in a horizontal way, even if it looks more seriously at the hypothesis than a railgun or a coilgun.
But there is also a fourth possibility, which is to say that this new mysterious gun could be an ETC (Electro-Chemical) gun, which uses a plasma cartridge to ignite and control the propellant of a shell in order to lengthen the range considerably. of the last.
Of these four possible candidates, it seems reasonable to discount the possibility that it is a conventional super-gun. On the one hand because the Chinese navy had already decided to harmonize its naval guns to restrict itself to only three calibers - 30, 76 and 130 mm - and secondly because technically speaking the Chinese manufacturers do not need to enlarge both the turret and the barrel system, which easily exceeds 8 meters in length, if it were only to achieve a 155 mm for long-range strikes, by referring to the land cannons developed by the NORINCO group .
The hypothesis of a possible new "horizontal" loading mechanism for shells also seems implausible, because of its very difficult integration on a warship, and above all it would not have mobilized so many resources.
As for the question of whether it is a railgun, a coilgun or an ETC gun, the arguments to support one or the other exist but it is difficult to decide for the moment.
Technically speaking, the Chinese institutions started very early in the 1980s on these three types of electromagnetic launch and achieved quite significant results.
Examples include the 303EMG Experimental Hybrid Cannon, whose development and test fire was completed in 1988, which has already successfully propelled a 30.2 g shell at a muzzle velocity of 3,000 m / s. in the laboratory.
This system actually combines two electrically conductive parallel rails (railgun) placed at the front, and a rear part with a coiled coil of solenoids (coilgun). The results were jointly evaluated by the Chinese Navy and the Chinese Academy of Sciences at the time, who found them "encouraging and equivalent to those obtained by Western countries over the same period".
On the other hand, the China Academy of Engineering Physics (CAEP) and the Beijing University of Technology (北京 理工 大学) and other Chinese universities have also been working on several ETC canon projects since the beginning of 90's.
More recently, shows that firing trials of a 6-meter railgun powered by a 3.2 MJ PPU (Pulse Power Unit) and 32 NPS ( Pulse Forming Network) of 100 kJ, have been made. Chinese researchers say the system can be easily upgraded to 10 MJ and reduce the length of the gun to 4 meters instead of 6. All this suggests a possible application in the military field.
And as already mentioned at the beginning, a naval electromagnetic gun project was launched in 2013 and it was entrusted to the Institute 206 of the aerospace group CASIC and the Beijing University of Technology, which have also built to work together on the mechanical simulation related to the electromagnetic launch in aerospace. This one way or another demonstrates the general advance on possible applications around the field.
At least five Chinese institutions are involved in "capital" projects around railgun, coilgun or related hybrid systems during the 12th and 13th Five Year Plan. For example, on 19 February 2014, the former deputy commander of the Chinese Air Force was reported to have been fired by teams from the CETC Institute.
Physically, the new gun in Wuhan is a little more like the railgun being developed by BAE Systems for the US Navy, but at this level it is very unwise to rely on physical resemblance to identify such a system. weapons.
However, the containers on the 936 Haiyangshan Bridge could be part of PPU / PPS to provide the mass of energy required, NFP where the generated energy is stored, or control. There is no doubt that, in the case of a railgun or coilgun, the lower tier of the ship should also be filled for the different associated systems.
Anyway, we can already speak of an advanced state, see very advanced, in the development of such a gun of next generation made by Chinese manufacturers.
Finally, many are already wondering if it is possible that this electromagnetic gun can be integrated tomorrow on the current destroyers of the Chinese naval forces. Because of its very large size, especially in length, it seems unlikely that the system could be installed as such on a Type 052D, which would not have enough space between the position of its main gun H / PJ-45 130 mm and vertical launch cells located just behind.
On the other hand, it seems still possible to integrate the turret on the Type 055 of more than 10 000 tons, but the various equipment to ensure the functioning of a railgun or coilgun will inevitably force the engineers of the 701 Institute (CSIC ) to review any layout on the lower deck levels, which is to rethink a good part of the ship and rebalance the whole.
Given the amount of work to be done and the current state of the system, it is more reasonable to speak of a delay of 5 to 7 years before you can see a railgun, coilgun or others entered into service on a ship Chinese war, unless the geopolitical context changes abruptly and a gun of this kind is raised to a "strategic national" level, which is logically impossible.
On the type of gun in question, three hypotheses are debated today - When some think that it is a new model of naval gun of very big caliber, well beyond 203 to 460 mm, of others evokes the possibility that it is a railgun or Chinese coilgun.
The former Chinese Navy technical officer mentioned above speaks of a third possibility which consists of a new mechanism to reload a cannon into shells in a horizontal way, even if it looks more seriously at the hypothesis than a railgun or a coilgun.
But there is also a fourth possibility, which is to say that this new mysterious gun could be an ETC (Electro-Chemical) gun, which uses a plasma cartridge to ignite and control the propellant of a shell in order to lengthen the range considerably. of the last.
Of these four possible candidates, it seems reasonable to discount the possibility that it is a conventional super-gun. On the one hand because the Chinese navy had already decided to harmonize its naval guns to restrict itself to only three calibers - 30, 76 and 130 mm - and secondly because technically speaking the Chinese manufacturers do not need to enlarge both the turret and the barrel system, which easily exceeds 8 meters in length, if it were only to achieve a 155 mm for long-range strikes, by referring to the land cannons developed by the NORINCO group .
The hypothesis of a possible new "horizontal" loading mechanism for shells also seems implausible, because of its very difficult integration on a warship, and above all it would not have mobilized so many resources.
As for the question of whether it is a railgun, a coilgun or an ETC gun, the arguments to support one or the other exist but it is difficult to decide for the moment.
Technically speaking, the Chinese institutions started very early in the 1980s on these three types of electromagnetic launch and achieved quite significant results.
Examples include the 303EMG Experimental Hybrid Cannon, whose development and test fire was completed in 1988, which has already successfully propelled a 30.2 g shell at a muzzle velocity of 3,000 m / s. in the laboratory.
This system actually combines two electrically conductive parallel rails (railgun) placed at the front, and a rear part with a coiled coil of solenoids (coilgun). The results were jointly evaluated by the Chinese Navy and the Chinese Academy of Sciences at the time, who found them "encouraging and equivalent to those obtained by Western countries over the same period".
On the other hand, the China Academy of Engineering Physics (CAEP) and the Beijing University of Technology (北京 理工 大学) and other Chinese universities have also been working on several ETC canon projects since the beginning of 90's.
More recently, shows that firing trials of a 6-meter railgun powered by a 3.2 MJ PPU (Pulse Power Unit) and 32 NPS ( Pulse Forming Network) of 100 kJ, have been made. Chinese researchers say the system can be easily upgraded to 10 MJ and reduce the length of the gun to 4 meters instead of 6. All this suggests a possible application in the military field.
And as already mentioned at the beginning, a naval electromagnetic gun project was launched in 2013 and it was entrusted to the Institute 206 of the aerospace group CASIC and the Beijing University of Technology, which have also built to work together on the mechanical simulation related to the electromagnetic launch in aerospace. This one way or another demonstrates the general advance on possible applications around the field.
At least five Chinese institutions are involved in "capital" projects around railgun, coilgun or related hybrid systems during the 12th and 13th Five Year Plan. For example, on 19 February 2014, the former deputy commander of the Chinese Air Force was reported to have been fired by teams from the CETC Institute.
Physically, the new gun in Wuhan is a little more like the railgun being developed by BAE Systems for the US Navy, but at this level it is very unwise to rely on physical resemblance to identify such a system. weapons.
However, the containers on the 936 Haiyangshan Bridge could be part of PPU / PPS to provide the mass of energy required, NFP where the generated energy is stored, or control. There is no doubt that, in the case of a railgun or coilgun, the lower tier of the ship should also be filled for the different associated systems.
Anyway, we can already speak of an advanced state, see very advanced, in the development of such a gun of next generation made by Chinese manufacturers.
Finally, many are already wondering if it is possible that this electromagnetic gun can be integrated tomorrow on the current destroyers of the Chinese naval forces. Because of its very large size, especially in length, it seems unlikely that the system could be installed as such on a Type 052D, which would not have enough space between the position of its main gun H / PJ-45 130 mm and vertical launch cells located just behind.
On the other hand, it seems still possible to integrate the turret on the Type 055 of more than 10 000 tons, but the various equipment to ensure the functioning of a railgun or coilgun will inevitably force the engineers of the 701 Institute (CSIC ) to review any layout on the lower deck levels, which is to rethink a good part of the ship and rebalance the whole.
Given the amount of work to be done and the current state of the system, it is more reasonable to speak of a delay of 5 to 7 years before you can see a railgun, coilgun or others entered into service on a ship Chinese war, unless the geopolitical context changes abruptly and a gun of this kind is raised to a "strategic national" level, which is logically impossible.
Some insider explained , if it has gone to sea trial(just like what @Toronto said):
- Strict procedures are followed during weaponry projects
- R&D is done by the factory, but land-based user acceptance tests are controlled by the military's procedure
- Part of the land-based user acceptance tests for projectile weaponry is on a "rolling platform" which simulates the on-ship situation
- If the weapon fails land-based user acceptance test the project will be reset. If you want to try again you have to start from the beginning
- After land-based user acceptance test, you can apply for sea-based user acceptance test. This is very costly to the Navy. But there were cases a project failed at this stage
- His conclusion is the railgun is already quite mature otherwise the Navy won't go this far
Lethe
Captain
You joke, and yet is a real comment:
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