PLAN Anti-ship/surface missiles

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
I thought 125km, not 120km, comes from FD-2000 sales literature. Everyone just took that from the brochure since its easy to reference.
Since the DoD reports do not specifically mention a range and you have to estimate range based on their graphics, it is totally immaterial whether the range is 120 or 125km. The take home point is that it's not 150km, to speak nothing of 200km.

Important thing to consider is that these values are actually given in some sort of context. (most figures for other SAMs are rarely given context). 125 km figure is against jet aircraft. That can of course mean supersonic fighter jets, but it may also theoretically mean subsonic jetliners. I also remember one other promo poster for fd-2000 with same figures but against images of targets. And the 125 km reach was against a photo of flanker. Now that doesn't HAVE to mean much, but IF true - it'd mean effective reach against a subsonic airliner would be greater. And reach against a turboprop perhaps greater still.

MBDA is explicit on their website about Aster 30, having 70 km reach against fighter planes and 120 km reach against slower planes.
Some graphs for historical SAMs such as S200 show that its 240 km total reach is for slow fliers, while a evading jet fighter can more than halve that figure.
I've also read a book on Patriot SAM where 150 km range is cited as doable but not useful, while 100 km is a limit where fighter jets can be downed.
Sadly, these last two SAM claims obviously do not come from an official source.
Listed missile range unless otherwise specified is usually going to be slant range against directly inbound, non-maneuvering, subsonic, non-stealthy, fighter-sized targets. Any deviation from this and the range starts decreasing. The worst case scenario of a crossing, maneuvering, supersonic stealthy cruise missile (e.g. LRASM) is going to be an extremely difficult target to hit and may cut effective range by possibly an order of magnitude or more.

This has more to do with the way the radar can find, track and engage the targets rather than the missiles themselves. S-300 and S-400 uses the same group of missiles 48N6 and 40N6 family but the big difference is the radars, the S-400 batteries are using AESA radars, which also includes UHF/VHF long wave AESA while S-300 family are PESA.

Since HQ-9, S-300/400, PAC family are using TVM and SARH, your effective distance has nothing to do with the missile's kinetic performance but how far the radar illuminating beam can travel. So even if the missile itself can travel 200km, if the radar can only engage and illuminate certain targets from 125km, then that is the effective range of the missile. That is why the literature uses slant range, which you will also note for HQ-16 and HHQ-16.

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The S-300 and S-400 family uses big radars --- Tomb Stone, Flap Lid, Big Bird, Grill Pan --- are considerably bigger than the PAC's MPQ-53 and the AEGIS SPY-1D. Flap Lid is said to have over 10,000 elements.

FD-2000 is said to use HT-233 or H-200 engagement radars. I don't know the number of elements, I remember reading 3,000 in one article, 5,000 in another. I think the earlier version of the radar might have been a PESA (see Carlos Kopp article), but it may have shifted to an AESA later on, to match with the Type 346. The performance quoted is tied with the HT-233 or H-200 radars or at least to what they are allowed to export; don't know if this applies to later versions with AESA and/or domestics version. It may probably not reflect what's on the Type 052C/D or Type 055, as I suspect not only do they have their own performance parameters, there might be progressive versions of the Type 346 as well.

But of course, once the missiles get active guidance, with emitters on the missiles themselves, no need for shipboard illuminators, has the ability to engage targets beyond the horizon, then the effective range of the missile becomes more of the missile's flight and kinetic performance.
Yes, it is also important to remember that a missile's range can be limited either by the missile itself or the FCR, or finally by the flight profile. I remember reading somewhere that the SM-2's range doubled when its flight profile was changed to semi-ballistic.
 

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
Since the DoD reports do not specifically mention a range and you have to estimate range based on their graphics, it is totally immaterial whether the range is 120 or 125km. The take home point is that it's not 150km, to speak nothing of 200km.


Listed missile range unless otherwise specified is usually going to be slant range against directly inbound, non-maneuvering, subsonic, non-stealthy, fighter-sized targets. Any deviation from this and the range starts decreasing. The worst case scenario of a crossing, maneuvering, supersonic stealthy cruise missile (e.g. LRASM) is going to be an extremely difficult target to hit and may cut effective range by possibly an order of magnitude or more.


Yes, it is also important to remember that a missile's range can be limited either by the missile itself or the FCR, or finally by the flight profile. I remember reading somewhere that the SM-2's range doubled when its flight profile was changed to semi-ballistic.

The air friction proportinoal to air density.

Means that if the missile fly higher then it can fly longer by the same speed.
 

SinoSoldier

Colonel
There is talk that PLAN vessels are able to carry the DF-17 MRBM armed with anti-ship hypersonic glide vehicles. A PLAN officer also divulged in a presentation that one of the main anti-ship weapons of their fleet would be shipborne ASBMs.
 
... A PLAN officer also divulged in a presentation that one of the main anti-ship weapons of their fleet would be shipborne ASBMs.
LOL told you Oct 24, 2017
... I had been thinking about dozen of AShBMs launched in the middle of Pacific which would be the ultimate plunging fire, like one century after the US and Japanese Navies came out with the requirement for plunging fire in the middle of Pacific
734795a3247cbe0bb601f16943750bda--uss-north-carolina-the-battleship.jpg
 

SinoSoldier

Colonel

Only one issue with this proposal: if any part of your targeting network (i.e. satellites, observer aircraft, OTH radars) are taken out, your ASBMs become useless. Sure, these may work as an addition to existing anti-ship cruise missiles, but certainly not a replacement for it.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Since the DoD reports do not specifically mention a range and you have to estimate range based on their graphics, it is totally immaterial whether the range is 120 or 125km. The take home point is that it's not 150km, to speak nothing of 200km.

The report I have for the US Congress, which is available to the public, in PDF form, doesn't mention anything like that. This is from the 2017 edition.

Says doing research and development here to extend range beyond 200km. Which means the range is up to 200km.

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Shows the HHQ-9 with a radius of 200km, and the naval SA-N-20 at 400m.


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I have also seen the 200km figure mentioned in a few places, including Jane's, armyrecognition.com, and deagle.com.

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Last edited:
The report I have for the US Congress, which is available to the public, in PDF form, doesn't mention anything like that. This is from the 2017 edition.

...
I recalled that document, as it's referred to Type 055 as "Renhai" apparently for the first time:

"China is also constructing the larger RENHAI-class cruiser (CG), called the Type 055 by the PLAN."
(it's at p. 25; 33 of 106 in
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and wiki picked up on it

just saying
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
I recalled that document, as it's referred to Type 055 as "Renhai" apparently for the first time:

"China is also constructing the larger RENHAI-class cruiser (CG), called the Type 055 by the PLAN."
(it's at p. 25; 33 of 106 in
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and wiki picked up on it

just saying

Document keeps referring to HQ-9 as CSA-9. I wonder why.

Globalsecurity.org also lists HQ-9 as 200km, but goes further by saying 200 to 230km. In addition to that, also lists a preliminary (early version) of 100km to 120km.

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Deputy Editor of Jane's Review mentions 230km in this interview.

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The more I read through the articles, the more the range changes from the date, with shorter ranges on older articles to longer ranges on later articles.

2016 Popsci article which I posted earlier, refers to the range at 200km.

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But 2015 earlier article here:

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...says ONI put the range at 150km.

If I go back to earlier articles, ONI initially puts HQ-9 range at 90km, then 100km (80nm), and then so on.

I tend to believe that the ranges are estimated based on Russian 5V55 and 48N6 missiles which the HQ-9 resembles, as well as FD-2000/FT-2000 sales literature. The FT-2000 is the passive version and lists a range of 100km in its sale brochure.

My opinion about the HQ-9 and HHQ-9 ranges is that.... they are --- like all AAMs and SAMs --- very much dependent on the RCS of the target, and that paper numbers are useless indeed.
 
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