Falklands War, 1982, Thread

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TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
5 air to surface Exoset missiles only 5! 2 sank the Coventry, 2 Sank the Atlantic conveyor and 1 was used in a failed attack on the Avenger. We have the account of the crew of the Avenger, we have a heroic account of the Airforce pilot of the Super Entanard that matches the accounts all save for 1 detail the Avenger is not the Invincible and not a carrier.

As for the Prince, we only listen as he is a prince and more importantly his stories are undated. He Embellished, a missile drill becomes an attack, a flight near the conveyor becomes an attack on a carrier.
Fact veterans have Embellished war stories since the first war.
 

b787

Captain
Now if he was flying a Sea King he must have had a dopple-ganger! I know he's a Prince but no one can be at two places at the same time.

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He never claimed to be at two places at the same time, why? simple
Was he 24 hours 7 days a week in the Helicopter?

He mentions to be during a missile attack, be he never said i was 24/7 or all the time aboard the Helicopter come on, he said i was aboard the Invincible while there was missile attack.
 

b787

Captain
5 air to surface Exoset missiles only 5! 2 sank the Coventry, 2 Sank the Atlantic conveyor and 1 was used in a failed attack on the Avenger. We have the account of the crew of the Avenger, we have a heroic account of the Airforce pilot of the Super Entanard that matches the accounts all save for 1 detail the Avenger is not the Invincible and not a carrier.

As for the Prince, we only listen as he is a prince and more importantly his stories are undated. He Embellished, a missile drill becomes an attack, a flight near the conveyor becomes an attack on a carrier.
Fact veterans have Embellished war stories since the first war.
you have to be open to admit possibilities and see what is the most likely facts and what is our speculative explanation.

I will show you what it was claimed
A newspaper from 1982 claiming the Aircraft carrier HMS invincible was destroyed
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and a Magazine from 8th June 1982 claiming the HMS Invincible got off of combat
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So the claim goes back to 1982

Argentina later they sait they hit it, in this Magazine in fact they have an account by Ernesto Ruben Ureta A-4 pilot and Mayor in the FAA
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it is until 2011 that Prince Andrew Son of the Queen, Duke of York says it shows a cover up by the British until 2011

”There are moments of hilarity that I remember,“ he said. ”We were under missile attack one day and a friend of mine and I were trying to finish a Rubik’s cube and just as the missile attack was taking place, we completed it and we were told to lie on the floor, take cover on the deck with this completed Rubik’s cube between us.

“I always thought: imagine what people would have thought if something ghastly happened and two bodies were found with a Rubik’s cube between them. It brought home to me how fragile we are as human beings”
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there are two facts a claim by the A-4 pilots, a claim by Prince Andrew Duke of York.

The fact is the attack happened, the success well that is debatable, thus that is speculative.


Photo of Ernesto Ruben Ureta`s A-4 Skyhawk returning from the attack to the HMS invincible
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TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Yes he launched on may 30 1982, no he did not attack the Invincible she was no where near where the Super Entanards were. An air Force pilot little to no experience with naval ships. He is distracted under fire has one shot picks the first target he sees and it's a dud. Wrong target, wrong missile wrong pilot. Of course by the time he has fired he is bugging out. Gets back to base. His escort is gone. He's tired possibly in shock. People storm him. "Did you get it did you get it?"
He says yes. How is he supposed to know Exocet is a long range missile he is not watching it fly.
The Officers take his word proclaimed victory as they need victories. By shear happenstance the Invincible falls back for engine repair. A myth is born.
 

b787

Captain
Yes he launched on may 30 1982, no he did not attack the Invincible she was no where near where the Super Entanards were. An air Force pilot little to no experience with naval ships. He is distracted under fire has one shot picks the first target he sees and it's a dud. Wrong target, wrong missile wrong pilot. Of course by the time he has fired he is bugging out. Gets back to base. His escort is gone. He's tired possibly in shock. People storm him. "Did you get it did you get it?"
He says yes. How is he supposed to know Exocet is a long range missile he is not watching it fly.
The Officers take his word proclaimed victory as they need victories. By shear happenstance the Invincible falls back for engine repair. A myth is born.
Terran again try to at least read translations of the Argentine version.


Ureta was an A-4 pilot, he did not fire the Exocet.
this is the picture of Alejando Francisco`s Super Etendar carrying the Exocet fired on that day, you can see the 4 Skyhawks behind
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This missile is an internally guided weapon. When it is about 12-15 kilometers from the target, it begins to utilize its active radar. The Exocet has a solid-fuel rocket motor. It can reach a top speed of Mach 0.9 (1 130 km/h).

The main advantage of the Exocet is its low flight altitude (generally 1-2 meters above the water). Due to this low altitude, this sea-skimming missile can often avoid detection until it is about 6 000 meters from the target, which leaves little time for launching surface-to-air missiles. Consequently, this missile has a good hit probability.


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See that is number 02 the Etendard with the Invincible half kill
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Ureta and Issac carry non guided weapons, according to them they saw the Invincible hit.


To know what happened that day is highly speculative, but there are 4 things that are highly suspicious about the British versions. I said versions because they have several versions from the avenger, Dexter and the initial denial from 1982 and the fact the mysteriously had an engine breakdown that delayed the carrier.
That is highly speculative thus we do need to really go too much there, there is only one fact, the attack did happen, that is confirmed by the Prince Andrew, the Argentine pilots Ureta and Issac and semi confirmed by Bryan Wally now miss cash

You can read here Miss cash served aboard the Invincible in 1982, but mysteriously like the Prince had anxieties, well in his case post traumatic stress from an attack that initially England said never happen
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kwaigonegin

Colonel
Are you guys still arguing about if an 'attack' happened or if Invincible was actually sunk?

Was ordnance ever expended on Invincible? If so did any hit?

Personally I believe an attack was planned and even executed HOWEVER I do not believe any missiles or bombs were ever launched at the Invincible directly and even if it did they never connected.
 

Obi Wan Russell

Jedi Master
VIP Professional
I count myself as a 'witness after the fact' inasmuch as I stood on Invincible's deck in the summer of 84 and toured much of the ship below decks. No sign of any battle damage repairs. The kind of damage an Exocet or bombs would have inflicted could not be repaired at sea, she would have to be towed to a major dockyard and drydocked. She withdrew from the frontline temporarily for a much needed engine change, a procedure which IS routinely carried out at sea. The Invincibles were powered by four Rolls Royce Olympus Marine Gas Turbines, variants of the jet engines that powered Concorde and the Vulcan Bomber. They weigh about three tonnes each and spares are carried aboard ship. She had been sailing at higher than normal speed for a protracted period by this point and an engine change became necessary. a few days away from the unpredictable manoeuvring of the rest of the Task Force in order for the engineers to work without disturbance. She was back in action days later. No bomb damage, no missile damage, just normal maintenance.

The markings on the side of the Argentine aircraft are just propaganda, not proof of a hit or a kill. The ship returned home a few months later without so much as a scratch. No casualties. The reminiscences of a few old men (including a Prince of the Realm) unsupported by any evidence, including photos, corroborating eyewitness testimony or physical proof whilst the accepted history has an abundance of all of the above shows they are fallible humans who want to believe something but it's just not true. The Etendard pilots certainly planned to attack the Task Force, detected a number of ships on their radars, fired the Exocet, the turned and ran for home (as planned). They did not hang around to see what if anything the missile hit, as they were already 'bugging out', so they cannot claim to be witnesses to anything being hit. The missile was observed to crash into the sea astern of Avenger, which was thirty miles away fro Invincible at the time. The Skyhawks, flown by Air Force pilots not trained or experienced in anti shipping attacks and with only a few seconds to see the ship they were attacking were understandably mistaken. It was Avenger, not Invincible.HMS%20AVENGER-F185-4-1978-1994-PAKISTAN-T.jpg
 

b787

Captain
A summary of Argentine version
The Air Force radar in Port Stanley (Ex Port Stanley), follows the routes of arrival and departure of the British Sea Harrier aircraft on their patrol flights. The lines of these directions are drawn on a large map with transparent cover in the Information and Control Center. After several days of monitoring it is verified that the planes disappear from the radar screen in similar directions and distances. The flights end in a small circle to which all lines converge. It is in this circle that the aircraft carrier is! It will not be easy to reach from the mainland, it is about 220 or 250 kilometers from the eastern end of the islands.

Airplanes that attack from the mainland can not fly over the Falklands in a direct course, but must instead surround them as far away as possible to avoid being detected and achieving surprise. The enormous distance to travel back and forth is almost twice the autonomy of the aircraft, it is essential to refuel several times in flight. They will send four Skyhawk A-4C Air Force aircraft and two Super Etendard Naval Aviation planes. The armament, 8 airbombs of 250 kilos and an Exocet missile. The fighters would take off from Rio Grande and the tankers Hercules KC-130 from Río Gallegos.
The Super Etendard will be piloted by Corvette Captain Alejandro Francisco and Lieutenant Luis Collavino. The A-4C by Lieutenants Vazquez and Ureta, Lieutenant Omar Jesus Castillo, and Ensign Gerardo Guillermo Isaac.

The Super Etendard make the first "lift" to explore the front with their radars. When they descend, they make a course correction to the right. Shortly after, they go up again, check again the indications of their equipment. This time, the height taken is smaller. The pilots of the A-4C, without radars in their airplanes and without being able to communicate with the naval aviators, must dominate their anxiety while they stare at the Super Etendard. The sky is completely covered, but the cloud layer is at considerable height and the visibility is very good. The Super Etendard descend from their last "glimpse" and suddenly the radio silence is broken. The voice of the leader of the sailors, Captain Corvette Alejandro Francisco, is heard in the headphones of the other pilots:
Twenty miles ahead! In the bow!

Simultaneously, the Exocet missile is dropped from its aircraft, falling several meters and before it touches the water it ignites and exits forward. It is the last Exocet left in Argentina. Immediately, the two naval airplanes turn left and away to return to their base. The pilots of the A-4C are now 36 kilometers from the target, but the ship still is not seen. They accelerate their turbines in depth, take 900 kilometers per hour and maintain the course of approach to the enemy ship. The Exocet, with its 160 kilos of deadly cargo, leaves a long trail of smoke, but soon loses sight. Its speed far exceeds the A-4. The squadron leader, Vazquez, takes to his left to No. 2, Castillo, and to his right to No. 3, Ureta and No. 4, Isaac.

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Radar of Puerto Argentino in 1982.
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kwaigonegin

Colonel
A summary of Argentine version
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Radar of Puerto Argentino in 1982.
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The article didn't proved anything though. All it said was an Exocet was launched which I can certainly take at face value however it didn't say anything past that event.

I don' think there are discrepancies if u read between the lines. There certainly was an 'attack' by the argentine jets that day but no missiles hit their target.

The good prince was right but so were the argentine pilots. One was 'attacked', the other 'attacked'... Both were technically true statements.
 
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