Chinese purchase of Su-35

[Blitzo]

Ähhhm .... we are still in the Su-35-thread ? Aren't we ??

Deino

I think it deserves some slack, deino, Only a few OT replies, and still constructive and relevant to the Su-35 topic I think, especially as both Su-35 and S-400 have been sort of paired together in our minds over the last few years.


@kriss can you link to the original post by caogen on the BBS or Weibo, whichever it was? Thanks

 

[Deino]

@Bltizo ... Yes for sure, but You know my impatience and here I agree with @Jovian that I only believe it when I see it ... but my impatience again !

Anyway back to that issue: I'm still sceptical about these latest reports, since we know for sure that these birds are nearly finished, in flight testing and the pilots are in training. We know that the engines and several other parts are ordered, paid and delivered even if the actual contract of the Su-35 was never officially confirmed. Even more it would be a slack into Russia's face if China would cancel the deal at such a late date and given the reports that the S400 was always financed in part by China I even more doubt a cancelation.

Let us wait until year's end ... if then no Su-35SK appeared I'm changing my mind.

Deino

 

[Blitzo]

@Bltizo ... Yes for sure, but You know my impatience and here I agree with @Jovian that I only believe it when I see it ... but my impatience again !

Anyway back to that issue: I'm still sceptical about these latest reports, since we know for sure that these birds are nearly finished, in flight testing and the pilots are in training. We know that the engines and several other parts are ordered, paid and delivered even if the actual contract of the Su-35 was never officially confirmed. Even more it would be a slack into Russia's face if China would cancel the deal at such a late date and given the reports that the S400 was always financed in part by China I even more doubt a cancelation.

Let us wait until year's end ... if then no Su-35SK appeared I'm changing my mind.

Deino

Yes... I'm very skeptical too, but as far as reliable big shrimps go, caogen is very big and when he says something people pay attention. So if he really is saying this originally, then it is definitely a development worth considering and keeping in mind.

As for year end... well December has just began, so it's just a few more weeks to go!

 

[SinoSoldier]

@Bltizo ... Yes for sure, but You know my impatience and here I agree with @Jovian that I only believe it when I see it ... but my impatience again !

Anyway back to that issue: I'm still sceptical about these latest reports, since we know for sure that these birds are nearly finished, in flight testing and the pilots are in training. We know that the engines and several other parts are ordered, paid and delivered even if the actual contract of the Su-35 was never officially confirmed. Even more it would be a slack into Russia's face if China would cancel the deal at such a late date and given the reports that the S400 was always financed in part by China I even more doubt a cancelation.

Let us wait until year's end ... if then no Su-35SK appeared I'm changing my mind.

Deino

Actually, the fact that these Su-35SKs have been built doesn't necessarily contradict with these reports. If problems were found with the SK variants specifically, the customer still reserves the right to refuse the purchase. Furthermore, I don't think we've actually had confirmation that the Su-35SKs have been built.

 

[perfume]

This is the actual post re-tweeted by the big shrimp - it doesn't say specifically that the deals are cancelled, rather that due to the underwhelming performance of the Russian equipment, the deals may be in danger and their future prospects in China are grim.

Rough translation for those who can't read Chinese:

Breaking - su-35 and S400 fail to pass Chinese tests

1. China sent a number of pilots to test-fly the Su-35 in Russian with unsatisfactory results, performance did not meet expectations and prospects for future cooperation on the project is gloom. According to the pilots, apart from inadequacy in reliability of various systems and the engines (compared to the j-16), its ability to operate in informationalized/integrated environments is also evidently lacking. This has led to decisions to increase the rate of induction for j-16s. Facing stringent test criteria of the Chinese, the su-35 is now falling behind by modern air warfare standards.

2. The S400 has been handed over to the Chinese for testing. Trial results have been unsatisfactory, many aspects have fallen short of expectations on the Chinese side.
The success (accurancy) of the hq-19 and hq-9 has fundamentally changed Chinese thinking in terms of building a comprehensive integrated air-defence network. Guided by 'Chinese Aegis', hq-9 has achieved an effective range of 300km - therefore the need for the S400 continues to diminish.
_____________________________

In terms of the Su-35, my opinion is that Chinese air warfare doctrine is more geared towards fighting a modern informationalized war using connected networks and systems (not unlike US doctrine); whereas Russia is still more focused on kinematics and manuvrebility - in this sense there is still something the Chinese can learn from the Russians by acquiring the Su-35, although the gap is now rapidly narrowing if not negligible in light of China's doctrine. But like mentioned, in other areas such as sensors, avionics and networked warfare, China has now surpassed Russia.

 

[kriss]

@Bltizo

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cjdby moderator who repost it

 

[Air Force Brat]

This is the actual post re-tweeted by the big shrimp - it doesn't say specifically that the deals are cancelled, rather that due to the underwhelming performance of the Russian equipment, the deals may be in danger and their future prospects in China are grim.

Rough translation for those who can't read Chinese:

Breaking - su-35 and S400 fail to pass Chinese tests

1. China sent a number of pilots to test-fly the Su-35 in Russian with unsatisfactory results, performance did not meet expectations and prospects for future cooperation on the project is gloom. According to the pilots, apart from inadequacy in reliability of various systems and the engines (compared to the j-16), its ability to operate in informationalized/integrated environments is also evidently lacking. This has led to decisions to increase the rate of induction for j-16s. Facing stringent test criteria of the Chinese, the su-35 is now falling behind by modern air warfare standards.

2. The S400 has been handed over to the Chinese for testing. Trial results have been unsatisfactory, many aspects have fallen short of expectations on the Chinese side.
The success (accurancy) of the hq-19 and hq-9 has fundamentally changed Chinese thinking in terms of building a comprehensive integrated air-defence network. Guided by 'Chinese Aegis', hq-9 has achieved an effective range of 300km - therefore the need for the S400 continues to diminish.
_____________________________

In terms of the Su-35, my opinion is that Chinese air warfare doctrine is more geared towards fighting a modern informationalized war using connected networks and systems (not unlike US doctrine); whereas Russia is still more focused on kinematics and manuvrebility - in this sense there is still something the Chinese can learn from the Russians by acquiring the Su-35, although the gap is now rapidly narrowing if not negligible in light of China's doctrine. But like mentioned, in other areas such as sensors, avionics and networked warfare, China has now surpassed Russia.

and here as I have repeatedly affirmed, the Chinese Flanker is likely a much more reliable, polished piece of equipment. The Chinese have turned to increase usage of composites, and no doubt have more finely integrated their own avionics into the airframe, avionics which are compatable with other Chinese aircraft and weapon systems...

so SU-35 has OVT, yep it does?? and what else pray tell, Russian AESA radar???? um hum??? will it supercruise??? maybe???

so for 2 BILLION dollars is this a sufficient upgrade??? Uh NO! I do not see this happening, first of this year, next year, or the year after that. Remember and I know Jeff will agree, the Russians "overpromise, and underdeliver",,,,, just the culture. China is much more driven to "perfection" the idea that we can build it better, is the heartbeat of China in my opinion, a heartbeat we used to feel in America, now in danger of extinction??

 

[Twix101]

If such a deal never come true. It might hide another reason behind that. The only credible reason why PLAAF would be committed to buy Su-35 would be to get their hands on the 117S engine, which would help them in getting more powerful WS-10 variants and at maybe at the same time, help them ramping up the D-30KP alternative (namely WS-20).

Appart from this fact, I see no justification whatsover in buying such planes when local alternatives are available. This deal is more like getting 48 117S overpriced engines inside russian-made test airframes IMHO.

 

[b787]

and here as I have repeatedly affirmed, the Chinese Flanker is likely a much more reliable, polished piece of equipment. The Chinese have turned to increase usage of composites, and no doubt have more finely integrated their own avionics into the airframe, avionics which are compatable with other Chinese aircraft and weapon systems...

so SU-35 has OVT, yep it does?? and what else pray tell, Russian AESA radar???? um hum??? will it supercruise??? maybe???

so for 2 BILLION dollars is this a sufficient upgrade??? Uh NO! I do not see this happening, first of this year, next year, or the year after that. Remember and I know Jeff will agree, the Russians "overpromise, and underdeliver",,,,, just the culture. China is much more driven to "perfection" the idea that we can build it better, is the heartbeat of China in my opinion, a heartbeat we used to feel in America, now in danger of extinction??

too much self praise my friend, Su-35 has something that still you can not see, it does supercruise, it is not a maybe, it is a fact, PAKFA does supercruise too, but 117 is not the most advanced engine in the world, already type 30 is in the bench test.

Russia passed all the structural technology of Su-27, J-11 is not more than a cloned aircraft built upon Russian technology, you degree of anti-christian Orthodox bias is great did you forget your Russian Rivals under putin have more pro-christian values than your own nation?


Today Su-35 has a radar of 400km. do you understand that to make a radar of such power you need engines generating such voltage? Al-31 will need to generate very large amounts of electricity and have extra batteries plus circuits that lose less energy in heat to reach Su-35`s irbis power.

Do you think i believe J-11 even with AESA can reach 400km? be my guest, it will need lots of batteries and electricity generators and Radar emitters that heat up much much less than even American circuits or french circuits on F-22, F-35 and Rafale, be my guest, but in vilified Russian`s putin the orthodox church plays a role to reduce abortion and with success.

 

[Blitzo]

If such a deal never come true. It might hide another reason behind that. The only credible reason why PLAAF would be committed to buy Su-35 would be to get their hands on the 117S engine, which would help them in getting more powerful WS-10 variants and at maybe at the same time, help them ramping up the D-30KP alternative (namely WS-20).

Appart from this fact, I see no justification whatsover in buying such planes when local alternatives are available. This deal is more like getting 48 117S overpriced engines inside russian-made test airframes IMHO.

I think the suggestion that China was only interested in Su-35 for the engines was always dubious at best, and there was never anything to suggest that was the case.

There are other reasons for why the Air Force may have been intersted in Su-35, anything from wanting a fighter with Su-35s maneuvrability for DACT, to simply having additional flanker airframes as a short term stop gap due to a temporary delay in J-16 induction.