055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

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jobjed

Captain
Type 051 with "command" facilities? What constitutes command facilities for this class of ship? A conference table and some phones? LOL sorry, not buying it. Any ship with alleged "command" facilities that is not one of the newer designs is not going to be able to do diddley squat in terms of commanding a modern surface force. I don't even believe the 052D has sufficient command facilities to efficiently coordinate a modern large surface action group. Carriers have entire flag bridges and flag staff to coordinate the actions of a CSG, you think a 052D has the room to spare for extra C&C facilities? That ship is already bursting at the seams with all the extra VLS tubes they've managed to stuff in there. That is why I think the 055 has come into existence at this time. The PLAN is finally getting enough modern ships into its inventory that large SAGs and CSGs plying distant oceans are going to become common occurrences, and they will need a 'squadron leader' to command them. I think the 055 is just such a vessel.

Ok, so I quadruple checked what POP3 said, and the Type 051 DDG-134 is indeed a command ship. Considering he's a retired PLAN officer who has actually been on that ship, he knows what he's talking about. He also said "
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".

According to him, all
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, the type outfitted onto the DDG-134. The minimum area required to host large command capability is
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. I don't know why the USN has such gigantic floorspace requirements for C&C facilities but the PLAN does it differently. POP3 also said the
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because they are completely contrary to PLAN doctrine.

So yes, the Type 055s will all have large command capability but they won't be the only ones and unlike the USN, they won't have a C&C advantage over the 052D/Es like the Ticos have over the Burkes. Additionally, C&C areas are arranged differently to VLS cells so you can't equate inability to squeeze in more VLS cells as an inability to squeeze in 20 meters squared of floorspace for C&C.
 

Iron Man

Major
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That is a partial slip up on my part -- I use the word "evidence" not to in the "something which definitively disproves or proves" an argument, but rather in the "indicator or sign" definition. If you wish you can replace the word "evidence" in my last post with "indicator".

Now, to address you -- my position is that it is still speculated that they may be able to eventually build up to 12 ships, however it is not speculated that there have been substantial media reports on this vessel which have said that they are intending to build up to 12 of these warships, and it is also not speculated that there is a lack of reports or even rumours of an 8000 ton destroyer or Pr 21956 class ship being pursued by the Navy.

The difference is that we're speculating what the Russian Navy may eventually be able to build and what their overall future orbat may look like, vs the "evidence"/indicators for what they currently have announced that they intend to build.

So when I say "so much evidence" for 12 Liders it is relative to the comparative lack of evidence/indicators of any Pr 21956/8000 ton destroyers being pursued.

I'll rephrase that last post if you wish, to reduce ambiguity "If we didn't have so many reports/indicators that the Russian Navy are going to be building 12 cruisers along with a frigate design and with such a relative lack of reports/indicators of any 8000 ton destroyer design being pursued, then I would agree with you that it would make much more sense for the Russian Navy to go for 16-24 destroyers."

The bottom line of that part of my post is that there's been a lot of noise and indicators about up to 12 Liders intending to be pursued produced, and no noise or indicators about Pr 21956 or an equivalent displacement destroyer intending to be pursued.

Okay first of all, you have to admit that this part of your post is needlessly aggressive right? Is there really a need to bring in "working girls"? Come on, I think we can be less colourful about this.

Secondly, yes I agree that 12 ships of the Lider class is probably unlikely to be built, given the state of the Russian economy and also how other surface combatant projects in the recent past have been implemented relatively poorly by the Russian Navy.
But that doesn't change the fact that at this stage, the indicators from affiliated Russian state media and various military and industry entities have said they are intending to build 12 such ships, and also that there has been no reports, indicators or rumours about an 8000ton destroyer being pursued, Pr 21956 or otherwise.
Regardless of the relative "wealth" of Lider reports compared to the relative dearth of 21956 reports, it remains a dubious proposition by pretty much every observer (yourself included) that Russia will be able to turn out anywhere near the number of Liders that they claim. Some people even believe that they cannot turn out any of this class at all. I cannot even find an article that quotes a Russian government or military official as saying that they are actually going to build this boat. Add on top of that the laughable ORBAT posed by a few 17.5kt Liders plus, what, eight 4.6kt Gorshkov class frigates and six 4kt Grigorivich class frigates (and this assuming they can transition to Russian engines), with a smattering of smaller corvettes, is somehow going to represent the entirety of the Russian Navy in the 2020s and 2030s when the Soviet-era ships are all gone? Something doesn't add up. There is a giant hole in the numbers, and the shape and size of this hole is that of a destroyer at 8-10,000 tons.

Yes, OHPs by the end of their service lives had all their AAW armament removed (removing the Mk-13 launchers as you said), but that didn't mean the OHPs were doing ASW.

From what I've read, by the end of their service lives and after the removal of the Mk-13s, most of the remaining OHPs were doing more general patrol duties and drug interdiction missions, rather than performing ASW missions as part of a CSG or otherwise.
Come on, you know exactly what I mean. Which military vessels in peacetime are being used for their intended purpose within a CSG? Ticos and Burkes are primarily AAW destroyers, but nowadays are they performing that mission to any great degree? They are glorified cruise missile trucks these days. They are performing AAW about as much as OHPs were performing ASW. This does not in any way diminish the fact that OHPs within the USN ORBAT were intended solely for ASW, not AAW or ASuW. At least the LCS frigate will have organic VL Hellfire capability, probably to deal with swarming boat attacks against the CSG, which is more ASuW than could be said for the OHPs after their Harpoons were removed.

If the LCS class gets fitted with VLS such as Mk-67 one day then that would be true, though I've heard no plans to fit either the LCS or FF ships with such weapons.
Edit; feel free to correct me though, I might have missed such news if it had happened.
This is being considered for later addition. A Mk-56 VLS could easily 9-pack ESSMs, meaning a 4-cell module could give the LCS a generous anti-air arsenal of 36 ESSMs.

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Ok, so I quadruple checked what POP3 said, and the Type 051 DDG-134 is indeed a command ship. Considering he's a retired PLAN officer who has actually been on that ship, he knows what he's talking about. He also said "
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
".

According to him, all
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, the type outfitted onto the DDG-134. The minimum area required to host large command capability is
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
. I don't know why the USN has such gigantic floorspace requirements for C&C facilities but the PLAN does it differently. POP3 also said the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
because they are completely contrary to PLAN doctrine.

So yes, the Type 055s will all have large command capability but they won't be the only ones and unlike the USN, they won't have a C&C advantage over the 052D/Es like the Ticos have over the Burkes. Additionally, C&C areas are arranged differently to VLS cells so you can't equate inability to squeeze in more VLS cells as an inability to squeeze in 20 meters squared of floorspace for C&C.
Sorry, still not buying it. The Type 051 may have a command capability, but there is just no way this capability is tailored towards or has any relevance for modern PLAN fleets. Nor do I think you have the evidence to infer that the 055's command capabilities are the same as any the 052D is capable of based on pop3's statements.
 
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Blitzo

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Regardless of the relative "wealth" of Lider reports compared to the relative dearth of 21956 reports, it remains a dubious proposition by pretty much every observer (yourself included) that Russia will be able to turn out anywhere near the number of Liders that they claim. Some people even believe that they cannot turn out any of this class at all. I cannot even find an article that quotes a Russian government or military official as saying that they are actually going to build this boat. Add on top of that the laughable ORBAT posed by a few 17.5kt Liders plus, what, eight 4.6kt Gorshkov class frigates and six 4kt Grigorivich class frigates (and this assuming they can transition to Russian engines), with a smattering of smaller corvettes, is somehow going to represent the entirety of the Russian Navy in the 2020s and 2030s when the Soviet-era ships are all gone? Something doesn't add up. There is a giant hole in the numbers, and the shape and size of this hole is that of a destroyer at 8-10,000 tons.

Okay, in that case going back my post #2241 are you basically only willing to look at the Russian Navy's current plans and argue that they are most likely going to introduce an 8000-10000 ton destroyer?
And thus you're not willing to consider the possibility that the announcements and reports so far could also be taken at face value and looked at through that perspective?

I obviously don't have a problem with that choice, but as I said back in that post I think it is not unreasonable to consider both tracks of thought, and they are not necessarily mutually exclusive as of yet.


Come on, you know exactly what I mean. Which military vessels in peacetime are being used for their intended purpose within a CSG? Ticos and Burkes are primarily AAW destroyers, but nowadays are they performing that mission to any great degree? They are glorified cruise missile trucks these days. They are performing AAW about as much as OHPs were performing ASW. This does not in any way diminish the fact that OHPs within the USN ORBAT were intended solely for ASW, not AAW or ASuW. At least the LCS frigate will have organic VL Hellfire capability, probably to deal with swarming boat attacks against the CSG, which is more ASuW than could be said for the OHPs after their Harpoons were removed.

Um, Ticos and Burkes today do mostly fire their weapons in anger in the last few decades in the form of cruise missiles, yes, but outside of that during standard operations in the USN they still form the primary shipborne AAW component of CSGs or other formations (as well as independent operations where they conduct multi domain warfare). So when you said OHPs conducted ASW after removal of their Mk-13s, I assumed you meant it similarly, for example there would be OHPs as part of CSGs in the ASW mission, which we would be able to visually ID.

But from what I understood, after the Perrys had their Mk-13s removed, most of them were conducting general patrol duties and interdiction duties as part of their standard missions, and I do not recall OHPs conducting ASW or being part of CSGs in any sort of significant presence after the removal of their Mk-13s. I'd be happy to be corrected of course.


.... that said, this discussion about what the OHP's mission was after removal of the Mk-13 is sort of a red herring as to what the original discussion was about.
You were saying that after the removal of the Mk-13 launchers, the OHP's ASW capability "remained unquestioned," which I interpreted is to suggest that a ship can have powerful ASW capability despite not having potent AAW or ASuW capability, and obviously I do not have any problem with such a statement.

The context of that statement, of course, was the discussion about what armament and capabilities for frigates across multiple navies are, and it seems like you have agreed lacking AAW capabilities like how the LCS/FF currently do, is on the outliers of capability for various navies.


This is being considered for later addition. A Mk-56 VLS could easily 9-pack ESSMs, meaning a 4-cell module could give the LCS a generous anti-air arsenal of 36 ESSMs.

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If they have indeed kept the ship modular enough to add something like Mk-56 VLS then that would definitely significantly help compensate for the LCS/FF's AAW deficit.

I would say that I haven't come across any other information out there about the possibility of a Mk-56 refit, and it seems like in this particular article it is the author's own interpretation of what "modular aspects" and "margins" constitute in terms of future VLS possibilities, but given the Mk-56 is a relatively small system it would not be impossible for significant upgrades later on in their life to introduce it to the ship.
 

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
Okay, in that case going back my post #2241 are you basically only willing to look at the Russian Navy's current plans and argue that they are most likely going to introduce an 8000-10000 ton destroyer?
And thus you're not willing to consider the possibility that the announcements and reports so far could also be taken at face value and looked at through that perspective?

I obviously don't have a problem with that choice, but as I said back in that post I think it is not unreasonable to consider both tracks of thought, and they are not necessarily mutually exclusive as of yet.
I am not willing to take it at face value when they say they are going to build 12 Liders. Neither, it seems, are you, since you have already said as much. That would leave you with subscribing to the setup I described in my last post with a "few" Liders, fourteen ~4,000 ton frigates, and twelve 2,200 ton Steregushchiy corvettes as Russia's worldwide fleet from the mid 2020s to 2030s.

Um, Ticos and Burkes today do mostly fire their weapons in anger in the last few decades in the form of cruise missiles, yes, but outside of that during standard operations in the USN they still form the primary shipborne AAW component of CSGs or other formations (as well as independent operations where they conduct multi domain warfare). So when you said OHPs conducted ASW after removal of their Mk-13s, I assumed you meant it similarly, for example there would be OHPs as part of CSGs in the ASW mission, which we would be able to visually ID.

But from what I understood, after the Perrys had their Mk-13s removed, most of them were conducting general patrol duties and interdiction duties as part of their standard missions, and I do not recall OHPs conducting ASW or being part of CSGs in any sort of significant presence after the removal of their Mk-13s. I'd be happy to be corrected of course.
Yes, most of them were conducting general patrol duties an interdiction duties. And what were Burkes and Ticos doing? AAW? No, they've been launching Tomahawks at insurgents for the last 15 years or so. I'm not sure why you keep talking about OHPs conducting non-ASW duties when you acknowledge that you fully know what I'm referring to here. Their continued existence in the USN was not to conduct "general patrol duties and interdiction duties", even if they were being co-opted for this purpose. Also, most photos that I've seen from the last decade feature OHPs as part of CSG 'group photos', so I'm not sure what you're referring to here; perhaps to try and imply that they are/were no longer considered ASW ships? I'm pretty sure you don't really think that.

.... that said, this discussion about what the OHP's mission was after removal of the Mk-13 is sort of a red herring as to what the original discussion was about.
You were saying that after the removal of the Mk-13 launchers, the OHP's ASW capability "remained unquestioned," which I interpreted is to suggest that a ship can have powerful ASW capability despite not having potent AAW or ASuW capability, and obviously I do not have any problem with such a statement.

The context of that statement, of course, was the discussion about what armament and capabilities for frigates across multiple navies are, and it seems like you have agreed lacking AAW capabilities like how the LCS/FF currently do, is on the outliers of capability for various navies.

If they have indeed kept the ship modular enough to add something like Mk-56 VLS then that would definitely significantly help compensate for the LCS/FF's AAW deficit.

I would say that I haven't come across any other information out there about the possibility of a Mk-56 refit, and it seems like in this particular article it is the author's own interpretation of what "modular aspects" and "margins" constitute in terms of future VLS possibilities, but given the Mk-56 is a relatively small system it would not be impossible for significant upgrades later on in their life to introduce it to the ship.
I don't know if you know this but both LM and Austal submissions for the LCS frigate upgrade included VLS. The medium-range AAW capability was eventually dropped, and this article suggests the LCS frigate's AAW deficit is more budget-related than anything else.
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Which makes the idea of keeping space available for a future AAW upgrade a more reasonable proposition. The Flight I/II vs IIA Burkes with hangars are a perfect example of budget constraints being sidestepped by eventual updates.
 

Blitzo

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I am not willing to take it at face value when they say they are going to build 12 Liders. Neither, it seems, are you, since you have already said as much. That would leave you with subscribing to the setup I described in my last post with a "few" Liders, fourteen ~4,000 ton frigates, and twelve 2,200 ton Steregushchiy corvettes as Russia's worldwide fleet from the mid 2020s to 2030s.

I think the difference is that I'm willing to both take their word at face value and consider it in that way, while also being skeptical about what may ultimately eventuate, whereas you are only willing to be skeptical.



Yes, most of them were conducting general patrol duties an interdiction duties. And what were Burkes and Ticos doing? AAW? No, they've been launching Tomahawks at insurgents for the last 15 years or so.

Um, like I said, the Burkes and Ticos were doing AAW for CSGs as well as one of their primary missions, and were physically assigned to CSGs for such missions as well. I am unsure if OHPs after removal of their Mk-13s continued to conduct ASW missions in the same consistency with CSGs


I'm not sure why you keep talking about OHPs conducting non-ASW duties when you acknowledge that you fully know what I'm referring to here. Their continued existence in the USN was not to conduct "general patrol duties and interdiction duties", even if they were being co-opted for this purpose. Also, most photos that I've seen from the last decade feature OHPs as part of CSG 'group photos', so I'm not sure what you're referring to here; perhaps to try and imply that they are/were no longer considered ASW ships? I'm pretty sure you don't really think that.

It is kind of hard to have this discussion without any sort of clear manifest or resource of what the OHPs in the USN were up to in the years after having their Mk-13s removed, so I'm just going to drop this talking point.



I don't know if you know this but both LM and Austal submissions for the LCS frigate upgrade included VLS. The medium-range AAW capability was eventually dropped, and this article suggests the LCS frigate's AAW deficit is more budget-related than anything else.
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Which makes the idea of keeping space available for a future AAW upgrade a more reasonable proposition. The Flight I/II vs IIA Burkes with hangars are a perfect example of budget constraints being sidestepped by eventual updates.

I am aware that both LM and Austal have submitted VLS integrated designs for their LCS variants among some of their past designs, yes. I believe the Saudis are purchasing a variant of Freedom class with VLS as well.

But we don't know if those VLS inclusive LCS designs also necessitated structural redesign to make the VLS fit in, and we don't know if current LCS/FF designs are able to accommodate VLS without structural reconstruction, if it is necessary...

And as of present I've heard nothing from the USN to suggest that the current LCS/FF ships are intended to be structurally compatible of being easily refit with VLS without major reconstructive work -- I have a feeling that if they could accommodate something like Mk-41 VLS easily then we would've heard about it. Of course, accommodating a small number of the lighter Mk-56 VLS might be possible without structural rework.
 

Iron Man

Major
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I think the difference is that I'm willing to both take their word at face value and consider it in that way, while also being skeptical about what may ultimately eventuate, whereas you are only willing to be skeptical.
I find this high horsing rather amusing, since you are obviously NOT taking them at face value if you are also being skeptical about their claim of "12" Liders. What you are trying to take at "face value" is actually just an interpretation on your part that because we haven't heard a lot of news about destroyers, there is therefore no destroyer pending and cruisers and frigates are going to be the sole combatants of the future Russian Navy, something they have not indicated in any way, shape, or form, so there is nothing for you to take at face value, only a personal interpretation based merely on silence.

Um, like I said, the Burkes and Ticos were doing AAW for CSGs as well as one of their primary missions, and were physically assigned to CSGs for such missions as well. I am unsure if OHPs after removal of their Mk-13s continued to conduct ASW missions in the same consistency with CSGs
They were doing doing AAW for CSGs? Against who, exactly? ISIS? Taliban?

I am aware that both LM and Austal have submitted VLS integrated designs for their LCS variants among some of their past designs, yes. I believe the Saudis are purchasing a variant of Freedom class with VLS as well.

But we don't know if those VLS inclusive LCS designs also necessitated structural redesign to make the VLS fit in, and we don't know if current LCS/FF designs are able to accommodate VLS without structural reconstruction, if it is necessary...

And as of present I've heard nothing from the USN to suggest that the current LCS/FF ships are intended to be structurally compatible of being easily refit with VLS without major reconstructive work -- I have a feeling that if they could accommodate something like Mk-41 VLS easily then we would've heard about it. Of course, accommodating a small number of the lighter Mk-56 VLS might be possible without structural rework.
I'm sure both Austal's and LM's VLS were integrated into a hull that was able to accommodate them. We already know this is a physical possibility given the design for the Saudis.
 

Blitzo

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I find this high horsing rather amusing, since you are obviously NOT taking them at face value if you are also being skeptical about their claim of "12" Liders. What you are trying to take at "face value" is actually just an interpretation on your part that because we haven't heard a lot of news about destroyers, there is therefore no destroyer pending and cruisers and frigates are going to be the sole combatants of the future Russian Navy, something they have not indicated in any way, shape, or form, so there is nothing for you to take at face value, only a personal interpretation based merely on silence.

I'm not judging you for choosing to only be skeptical, you obviously aren't obligated to believe in anything you don't think is logical, so I'm not sure what you mean by high horsing.

As for me taking their announcements at face value -- what I'm saying is that I'm willing to consider both the possibility that their announcements will come to pass and to consider their force structure logic within that context, as well as considering any number of other possible situations where they do not build the number of ships that they have announced or where they build a possible different new class that may have yet to be announced.

If you want to talk about interpretations, let's use that word instead. I'm willing to interpret the present announcements and indicators in a way that includes the possibility of them being able to build up to 12 Liders, as well as the various permutations of possibilities of them not building 12 Liders. OTOH, from what I see, you are choosing not to interpret the current indicators to believe that they can build up to 12 Liders, but are willing to consider the various permutations of possibilities of them not building 12 Liders. Am I close?



They were doing doing AAW for CSGs? Against who, exactly? ISIS? Taliban?

They were assigned to CSGs for the AAW mission, yes, including during their low intensity wars of the previous decade or so. Being part of a CSG's AAW escort performing the AAW mission obviously does not require them to actually shoot at an opposing force's aircraft, I'm sure you realize.

So, I was under the impression that your statement of OHPs doing ASW after the Mk-13 removal was an equivalent statement of OHPs being assigned to the ASW duty either for CSGs or other formations (or independently?)... which of course is difficult to prove or disprove without some comprehensive info about what all the OHPs have been doing in the years after removal of their Mk-13s.


I'm sure both Austal's and LM's VLS were integrated into a hull that was able to accommodate them. We already know this is a physical possibility given the design for the Saudis.

Yes of course.

The question is whether the current LCS hulls and/or the intended FF hulls will be able to accommodate the VLS in the same way that the Saudi's design or the previous VLS inclusive LCS hulls investigated by Austal and LM were able to, or if there may be structural differences between the current LCS hulls and/or future FF hulls vs the Saudi hull and VLS Austal and VLS LM hulls.
 

Jeff Head

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Guys, let's not get further side tracked and OT here with regards to Russian Lidars and US LCS.

Thanks.

DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS MODERATION
 

Lethe

Captain
Okay, but I do think that is not very diplomatic.

Thanks for your ongoing efforts to keep things polite and productive. I do consider Iron Man's "fanboi" accusation (which predates this latest discussion) to the be trigger for the combative tone of my own recent posts, but this is clearly unproductive and I will try to refrain from further such contributions.

Clearly time will tell regarding the numbers, characteristics and role of 055. For the moment I am satisfied to note that the recent rumour that multiple units are under construction fits with my projection for 055 to replace the 052-series as PLAN's large surface combatant going forward.

As for 055 being the primary large surface combatant or core of his Chinese Navy orbat -- actually his future orbat is one of 3000 ton corvettes 6500 ton frigates and 13000 ton destroyers... a quite balanced fleet, I think, but I'll leave the details to him.

It would be more accurate to say that those are the future programs I see playing out over the next 10-15 years -- clearly the actual orbat will contain 054/A, 052x, 056 as well.

My projection is based upon a narrative not only of warship evolution but of the evolution of Chinese strategic requirements, where those requirements have gradually evolved from the purely defensive ambition of securing the nation's territorial integrity, to engaging with Chinese interests at progressively greater distances from the mainland. This evolution has been dictated largely by the parallel narrative of increasing Chinese resources and technological capabilities, and is one we have already seen play out in different forms, such as the absence of a requirement for a JF-17-class aircraft for modern China, and the likely absence of a requirement for a J-10-class aircraft going forward.

Applied to the naval realm I see future generations of Chinese warships operating at greater distances from the mainland, being concerned not only with the South China Sea, but with strategically sensitive waterways such as the straits of Malacca, and even the Indian Ocean region. At the same time, increasing Chinese capabilities across the board will allow previous core priorities of coastal defence, power projection across the Taiwan strait, etc. to be fulfilled by more flexible, but more expensive assets. Specifically, I do not believe that China will replace its missile boats and submarine chasers with like assets. Rather, in future, the 056 corvettes can effectively fulfil their role whilst being far more capable across the board. The role of the current 056 corvettes, in turn, will in future be fulfilled by larger 2500-3000 ton corvettes, distinguished from their predecessors by better aviation facilities and with greater range, endurance and speed than the current vessels, allowing them to take on a limited subset of frigate taskings, in turn freeing up current and future frigates to push further afield, and so on.
 
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