Chinese Economics Thread

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
@Franklin

Very good writeup on the good points and the bad points in China.

On the plus side, I would add China's exceptionally high R&D spending levels (2%+) compared to any other developing country or even a much wealthier Newly Industrialised Economy. It's so high that it launches China firmly into the group of countries that are all hi-tech, wealthy and productive.

I pointed this out to David Shaumbaugh once (China's Future/George Washington University/Brookings) and was frankly astounded when he said that he didn't consider China a developing country

Plus McKinsey have recently pointed out that world-class companies exist in almost all sectors of the Chinese economy with a larger number of less efficient competitors, so it should be easier to raise productivity levels and ultimately growth.

In comparison, all companies in many non-export related sectors in Germany and Japan are significantly less efficient than the best companies in China (and the USA).

Pollution and labour force size are other issues, but they should be solvable. The FT in London ran an article on a study on how the labour force decline is not an issue for China, but I haven't seen a comparable one for pollution yet.
 
Last edited:

Franklin

Captain
Take the Chinese debt 'bubble' as a perfect example.

Firstly, the overwhelming majority of that debt was taken out to fund investment rather than consumption. That means there is real solid, physical properties and infrastructure that that debt has financed.

Secondly, almost all of China's debt is internally held. Meaning it's owed to a Chinese bank as opposed to a foreign one.

This is important, because those physical assets could eventually generate a return on the initial investment. The key issue is time and cash flow.

Under a purely capitalist system, cash flow is fundamentally important. Many a profitable business has gone out of business because of temporary cash flow hiccups (why the financial crisis was especially damaging for western economies, when bank credit dried up, many small to medium companies who have perfectly healthy and viable businesses went under because of cash flow problems, which in turn caused cash flow and other problems for other businesses and so on).

This is why western analysts often get their panties in a twist about the much hyped Chinese 'ghost cities'.

In a purely capitalist system, that would indeed cause absolute chaos. The banks would panic and call in loans, causing developers to go out of business, adversely affecting their supplies and customers. The administrators trying to flog all the empty or half developed houses would drive down housing prices, potentially spooking the market causing perspective house buyers to hold off purchases expecting further price falls, other banks getting nervous about developments they are funding and potentially calling in loans and causing more developers to go under.

However, China isn't a purely capitalist economy. The government keeps the banks in line, so no one calls in loans, and even extends credit terms to keep developers from going under.

Eventually, the empty apartments fill up, a new city is created, adding productivity to the Chinese economy and easing China's urban housing shortage, while the developer and banks both walk away with a decent profit.

I am not saying this arrangement is perfect. There are cowboy builders who take the money run rather than seriously try to build something, but these are generally in the minority, are ruthlessly pursued by the authorities and usually can only pull that trick once a lifetime (also why Chinese banks are so reluctant to lend to SMEs, because credit and background checking is still unreliable in China, so the chances of the owners of those small businesses doing a runner is much higher compared to a massive private or state-owned company).

The bigger downside is that Chinese savers loose out, and earn a pitiful interest on their savings.

This is an area the Chinese government needs to seriously address because it's leading to massive capital flight from China.

This is a major problem, but not for the reasons western analysts often assume/insinuate as Chinese people having no faith in the health and prospects of the Chinese economy and are escaping a sinking ship. No, they are just off chasing a better rate of return on their savings.
I disagree with your assessment of the Chinese economy. The metaphor I like to use when it comes to the economy is the human body. When your younger you can afford some bad eating habits with little consequences but when you become older those same eating habits will cause you much health problems. Its the same with the economy. China can afford those bad practises you describe in the past because it can assure itself that it can grow out of those problems because the economy in the past was extremely underdeveloped. But as the Chinese economy becomes more developed its going to become harder and harder in the future for China to out grow its problems.

By preventing real estate developers to go under through new bank loans is exactly why there are so many empty apartments and shopping malls in China today. Because the developers can build without much consideration for the viability of the projects as they know their backs are covert. This gives infrastructure projects in China a speculative element and sound planning and judgement when starting new projects is being undermined by taking a lot of the risks away for the developers.

The real reason why the US, Japanese and European economies are going under is because they wont allow unprofitable companies to go bust. This has created a lot of bad debts and bubbles in their economies. The problems in their economies has grown so large that they can no longer deal with these problems without a systemic collapse. China in my view hasn't reach that stage yet but is at risk going towards that direction.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
On empty apartments, I would add that there is no cost to keeping them empty.

Eg. Property taxes, electric/gas fixed charges etc

If they started to cost money to hold, then someone would have to occupy and pay those bills
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
By preventing real estate developers to go under through new bank loans is exactly why there are so many empty apartments and shopping malls in China today. Because the developers can build without much consideration for the viability of the projects as they know their backs are covert. This gives infrastructure projects in China a speculative element and sound planning and judgement when starting new projects is being undermined by taking a lot of the risks away for the developers.

I think you are making incorrect assumptions about what is happening.

The Chinese banks don't give developers a blank cheque to borrow as much as they want, nor are they lending the money for free.

A lot of developments in China sit partially complete precisely because the Chinese banks are doing their job.

Chinese banks still carry out the same risk assessment on lenders as western banks, the big difference is that if Chinese banks decide a loan is risky, they tend not to call that in unless it's exceptionally risky. Instead they effectively hold the loan. You, as a developer isn't going to get more money from the bank unless things change drastically. But OTOH, the bank isn't going to call in your loan knowing full well you have no hope of paying it and have to declare bankruptcy as a result.

The loan is held, not written off, and will continue to accrue insterest owed to the bank, so the longer the development sits idle, the more that will eat into the developer's profit margins.

In addition, the banks would never loan you all the money for a development, so the developer will have a significant amount of their own capital tied up in the developments.

Both of those factors would work to motivate developers to find solutions to their problems rather than thinking its someone else's problem.

The Chinese knows the capitalist game well enough to know you always need to make sure people have skin in the game to ensure they are properly motivated.

Both the banks and developers would have done their homework and concluded that a project is viable and likely to succeed before the bank would agree to a loan (why many SMEs complain about not being able to get credit - they don't pass the bank's smell test).

What more, the kind of 'ghost cities' western media love to fret about would almost certainly have been green lighted, if not commissioned by the Chinese government, who would have done their own due diligence in the planning phase.

The biggest direct impact all of the Chinese controls on banks is having on real estate is keeping the prices stable.

House prices are not falling as they should be in a capitalist market forces economy from all the extra supply. That is frustrating for first time buyers struggling to scrape enough together to buy their first home, but it is a massive relief to home owners and developers.

There would be massive social unrest if people see their most valuable possession - houses, fall significantly in value. Such a house price collapse will also cause developers to scale back future developments, which would negatively impact both the availability and price of housing further down the line, after the market recovers.

What China needs to watch out for is bubbles forming in the housing market from speculation. China is controlling for that, but by not using price to do it. They are restricting the availability of capital by making it harder for people to take out a second mortgage.

Generally speaking, Chinese housing prices are still well within healthy levels when compared to international prices of similar level cities, household gearing and income.

The real reason why the US, Japanese and European economies are going under is because they wont allow unprofitable companies to go bust. This has created a lot of bad debts and bubbles in their economies. The problems in their economies has grown so large that they can no longer deal with these problems without a systemic collapse. China in my view hasn't reach that stage yet but is at risk going towards that direction.

Too big to fail only really came to prominence after 2008, but the western economies have been in relative decline since long before that.

I firmly believe the primary cause is the oversize, disproportionate and downright damaging impact of western stock markets.

The stock market is supposed to be s way to connect industry with small time investors, allowing businesses to effectively pool many small bundles of cash to generate a meaning net total that they could use to invest in the business to increase/improve productivity and so grow the business and the national economy.

Modern western stock markets now have a fundmentally different primary purpose - it is the accumulation of wealth, but rather than direct that towards industry to boost productivity, a significant, if not the majority, of that pool wealth is getting siphoned off into the pockets of a very very small number of individuals.

Rather than helping to boost national economy growth, more and more, the stock market hinders it, by taking more and more money away from productive activities, and giving it to a tiny number of people who ends in wasting massive amounts of it.

It's a very simple economic truth that you generate far more economic activity giving $1000 each to 1000 people as opposed to giving $1,000,000 to one person.

Not only do you loose out on normal economic activity, giving so much more to so few people also vastly increases the likelihood of that money being employed use and wasted.

Millionaire and billionaire playboys have very different needs and priorities to the remaining 99% of the population. But because they control so much of the wealth, they direct a disportionately large part of the economy towards building extremely expensive, niche items to satisfy their own demands while the rest of the economy suffers chronic under investment as a side effect.

America is by far the most wealthy nation in the world, yet their schools are shamefully underfunded (the vast majority of normal schools, not the super elite 1% Ivy League universities and feeder private schools funded and used by the 1%); their infrastructure is crumbling; their healthcare system for the poor is atrocious, and their industrial base is rusting away.

All of that is a direct result of the few taking way more than they have any right to, and causing the whole to suffer as a result when there isn't enough wealth and money left to cover basic, fundamental public goods and services after they have taken their lion share.

Simply put, western economies have been under forming because they are pulled way out of balance and point of optimal equilibrium by the wealth and power of the few, who use their wealth and power to change the very rules of the game to give themselves an unfair advantage, thereby allowing them to gain more wealth and power and so creating a self-sustaining cycle of greed.

Greed is not necessarily a bad thing, it motivates people to come up with break throughs and innovations. That is not only fine, it is necessary to help an economy and people keen their comparative edge.

However, when people turn their minds from legitimate pursuits what I call positivity innovation, where you come up with new technologies or find better, more efficient ways of doing things; and instead turn to what I call negative innovation, where instead of making something of real value, you only seek to game the system to get a bigger share of the pie, well, that is where your economy starts to suffer and get into trouble.

It is my belief that a core part of good governance is to be on the lookout for negative innovation and come down hard on anyone caught doing it.

The Chinese government does that, western governments does not, and there is a huge part of the reason why the Chinese economy has been able to grow so successfully so consistently without suffering the booms and busts that have become characteristic of western economies.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
@plawolf

On banks, whilst the bigger banks have better risk assessment practices and are more conservative in only lending to profitable or important projects - I don't share the same view of the smaller Chinese banks who account for a significant proportion of lending these days.

My view is that they do suffer from local government meddling, as the local governments rely on land sales to the developers for their revenues. Another example would be the situation with coal power plants being built with borrowed bank money, as it boosts GDP figures, but it is clearly obvious that there is already way too much spare coal electricity capacity AND coal electricity demand is declining due to the shift to renewable energy and slowdown in heavy industry.
 

solarz

Brigadier
I think the fact that all the major Chinese banks are state owned is a key factor of the Chinese economy. Virtually all infrastructure related projects in China are generated by the state. Land development is initiated by local governments by selling land to developers. While some of that money will end up in private hands, most of it will go to the public treasury in one way or another.

This means that even if the developer goes bust and can't repay their loan, that money is still (mostly) around. The local government can recoup their losses by simply taking the land back and selling it to another developer.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Banking reform is one of the big topics and has been for a long time.

I think the big 4 banks are managed decently enough in terms of lending because of the level of control and oversight, whether lending be for purely commercial purposes or for projects deemed strategically important.

Baidu, Alibaba and Tencent are getting into fintech as well, and have the potential to become the largest/most profitable/most efficient banks in China as they know everything about their customers.

But there are also hundreds of smaller banks where sufficient oversight is not available and/or there is too much local government influence. I think it is really these banks that need to be reformed, with the first step being them allowed to fail and for deposit insurance to be implemented for retail depositors.
 

KIENCHIN

Junior Member
Registered Member
China will never experience Japanese malaise for the simple reason that China is her own master beholden to no one. Unlike Japan which is semi colony yep I said it. Loosing her competitive edge, the US forced Japan and Europe to appreciate their currency and at the same time lower the value of US dollar. This is against the Laissez fair principle of capitalist economy

At simple glance China situation look similar to japan in the 80's, But there are major differences as well
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


See Japan long decline start with plaza accord which forced Japan to appreciate Yen to 50% to a dollar But practically double that figure In Sept 1985 Japanese Yen went from 242 yen to a dollar to 152 yen to a dollar. Because there are no currency control

In response the Japanese government introduce stimulus and tell Japanese central bank to lower the interest rate to 4%. This create Real estate bubble and asset appreciation encouraging even more speculative bubble . Using stock as collateral to get loan then invested in real estate.

Due to financial deregulation where Japanese company has now access to financial market and lessen their dependence on bank loan. So in response the Japanese bank are now more than eager to give mortgage to company or individual. Thing get worse because of the interlocking nature of Japanese Keiretsu bank

All is well so long the Japanese economy is booming and booming they did in early 80's
But the yen appreciation combine with China rise slowly take their toll. Overnight Japanese product get more expensive Whole industry lost their market to Korean and Chinese product. I can think of textile, Toy, Utensil, small appliances

Japan home market is small so they depend more on export than China does

Japanese stock market crash and the whole house of card start to crumble . The Japanese miracle stop dead in its track!.

The thing get exacerbate by incompetent measure that they take since bubble crash.

Japanese economy are dominated by large corporation and most people work for them.There are no counterweight of small, nimble and feisty entrepreneur in the Japanese economy. Most small company are subcontract for the larger company.Reflecting the hierarchical nature of Japanese society
Eg Japan Sony was one of the first to introduce cell phone in early 90 But they are slow to update and keep up with the market. It doesn't come to anything.

Now lets look at China . First of all the real exposure of China bank is much smaller than in Japan combine with higher down payment requirement in China should limit any damage due to down turn in real estate.
Another thing China development is much lower than Japan does in 80. The urbanization rate in China is only 50%. So real estate is still in demand as the data show in recent statistic show that real estate value is recovering.

Now how about Zombie company and excess capacity. This is difficult to solve for the simple reason that these SOE provide employment to large number of people. You can just can't simply shut it down like Zhu Rongjie did in 80's For the simple fact that Chinese society has evolve since then .

Back then most people doesn't own their own home and live either on company housing or government housing which is dirt cheap. They don't have car, consumer product etc.No internet no we chat no weibo So the expectation is low. Not much to loose!

But now people are better educated, own home, car and see rising wages year after year. In short rising expectation. And with incomplete social welfare safety net transformation, If suddenly they lost their job it will be catastrophic for China. Because they now have much to loose. Middle east come to my mind

It is not that the government ignore it It just that the risk outweight the benefit.

So weaning off the SOE and trim excess capacity can only be done slowly with the hope that the private sector will absorb the surplus labor. You cannot train 45 yr old to become computer programmer

Fortunately China has booming private sector dominated by feisty, small, independent entrepreneur Just look at Shengzen, Alibaba , Taobao, Tencent, Xiaomi, OPPO etc
And she has huge market. China will escape the Japanese malaise and become the dominant economy in Asia if not the world
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


At first look high tech E commerce has nothing to do unskilled labor. But the warehousing, sorting, processing and delivery need huge amount of unskilled labor. Combine with rising living standard and expansion of service economy this should be the savior of Chinese economy.

I am optimistic about Chinese economy because the Chinese are by nature independent, entrepreneur, and hard worker.

People doesn't give enough credit to how better China manage their economy compare to Japan. They are more agile and responsive But due to ideology blinder this is not acknowledge in the west

We see now million of migrant worker going back to their villages and open up business using skill they that they acquire while they stay in cities. And taking advantages of improve infrastructure of road, Transport, internet, phone etc. It will propelled China to next stage of economy
Think what happen to Russia after the Cold War ended, the cold turkey treatment the West wanted, that is dismantling of the Soviet system virtually overnight and sending its economy into a nose dive which it had never recovered. Any changes to the SOE's would have to be done in incremental steps. I am no economist but I had witness first hand 23 years ago in Shenzhen how these SOE's operate and change must come for the Chinese economy to prosper but it has to be done on her on terms and not what some economist think how it should be done
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Think what happen to Russia after the Cold War ended, the cold turkey treatment the West wanted, that is dismantling of the Soviet system virtually overnight and sending its economy into a nose dive which it had never recovered. Any changes to the SOE's would have to be done in incremental steps. I am no economist but I had witness first hand 23 years ago in Shenzhen how these SOE's operate and change must come for the Chinese economy to prosper but it has to be done on her on terms and not what some economist think how it should be done


Well, Russia dismantled its system but had nothing to replace it with.

In comparison, China does have a functioning market economy with world-class companies in almost every industry.

So those companies should expand and the economy grow more efficient, if the SOEs were to be dismantled or their role shrink. The problem is that too much money is still going to the SOEs for activities that don't make sense and they're not reforming fast enough.
 

KIENCHIN

Junior Member
Registered Member
Well, Russia dismantled its system but had nothing to replace it with.

In comparison, China does have a functioning market economy with world-class companies in almost every industry.

So those companies should expand and the economy grow more efficient, if the SOEs were to be dismantled or their role shrink. The problem is that too much money is still going to the SOEs for activities that don't make sense and they're not reforming fast enough.
Don't get me wrong, i am not advocating keeping the SOE's afloat all i am saying is, it has to be done in a control manner and not go cold turkey like a chain smoker attempting to stop smoking overnight. Remember China has almost 10 times the amount of mouth to feed then Russia, imagine the chaos and possibly the break up of China if this experiment fails with a bang.
 
Top