F-22 Raptor Thread

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator

I have "Never" used the phrase "Air Dominance" because I have always felt it is a little "rude" to our friends, and fellow services, and I much prefer the term "Air Superiority".
But the Raptor and the AIM 9X exemplify "Air Dominance" , the Raptor is the "presumptive victor" in an Air to Air with ANY aircraft, foreign or domestic, OLD, NEW, or New Developed, including our own very outstanding F-35 A,B, or C.

GO Air Force!
 

Brumby

Major
USAF wants on-time F-X, not more F-22s

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The US Air Force has no interest in restarting production of the Lockheed Martin F-22, partly because it's too expensive and because it wants to move quickly on a next-generation fighter.

The service’s deputy chief of staff for strategic plans and requirements said as much during a congressional hearing on 8 March, suggesting that fighter jet manufacturers like Boeing, Northrop Grumman or Lockheed Martin may decide to offer modifications to existing technologies and platforms in the next F-X competition.

“Because we want to do it faster and don’t want to do another 20-year development programme for a whole host of reasons, we’ll try and go with technology that are at a high readiness level now with manufacturing capabilities that are at a high readiness level now,” Lt Gen James Holmes tells a Senate Armed Services subcommittee panel in response to questions about restarting F-22 production.

“I think it’s completely possible as we get the requirements that there may be competitors that bid on modification of an existing technology or platform like the F-22 and the F-35.”

Industry sources tell Flightglobal that there has been a lot of interest within the Pentagon recently about the restarting F-22 assembly. However, air force leaders have repeatedly denied seeking rough-order-of-magnitude cost estimates for procuring more F-22s and instead point to future fighter concepts as the best way forward.

The 187th and last twin-engine Raptor rolled off the assembly line in Marietta, Georgia in December 2011, but the manufacturing equipment was stored for possible use later. A RAND study in 2010 placed the cost of resuming F-22 production at $17 billion in 2008 dollars for 75 more aircraft, or $267 million per jet.

“There were some initial rough order of magnitude estimates of what it would cost,” USAF military deputy for acquisition Lt Gen Arnold Bunch tells the subcommittee. “[But] we have not estimated what it would be to re-open the line and populate it with more modern technology. We’ve not done that at this time.”

Holmes says pressing forward with the air force’s Next-Generation Air Dominance programme is the better way to make up for lower-than-planned fifth-generation fighter capacity, but cannot be a technologically exotic fighter jet that takes two or three decades to develop.

“They cost too much, they take too long, they make you drive for technology that’s so far into the future that it’s really hard to achieve and by the time you spend 30 years achieving it, it may not be exactly what you want,” he explains after the hearing. “We’re trying to move to a world where we go forward with new airplanes that take advantage of technology that’s ready to manufacture and we have the manufacturing skills to do it, and what could we produce in five years or 10 years instead of 30 years?

“It’s purely speculation on my part, but if I was going to ask a company to bid on what they could build for me in five years or 10 years, I’d expect that some of them would take advantage of work they’ve already done and base it on something they already have.”

Similar thinking has led Lockheed to propose an upgraded version of the KAI T-50 for the air force's T-X trainer programme over a clean sheet design proposed by Skunk Works. Boeing and Northrop, though, do not have any in-service fifth-generation fighters upon which to base F-X proposals.

The US Navy is already moving forward with an analysis of alternatives (AOA) for its F/A-XX strike fighter platform that will eventually succeed the Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet. The air force will begin that acquisition process next year, says Holmes.

The Air Force Research Laboratory is already working with industry on new aircraft and engine designs. Boeing, Northrop and Lockheed have already started releasing artist’s impressions of conceptual “sixth-generation” fighter jets, but none are based on previous aircraft.

Sorry AFB. It is not the type of news that you want to hear.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
USAF wants on-time F-X, not more F-22s

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Sorry AFB. It is not the type of news that you want to hear.
Are the people who say that they do not want more F-22s because they want an on-time FX actual career USAF personnel, or are they appointees?

I happen to believe that the two are not at all mutually exclusive. I I believe they can (and should) have both.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
USAF wants on-time F-X, not more F-22s

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Sorry AFB. It is not the type of news that you want to hear.

Well Bub, if you read what Holmes says, he states its entirely possible that we end up with competitors who bid an up-rated F-22 or F-35, and that we want the F-X sooner rather than later, so existing technologies may well be up-graded?

Have a look at the B-21 and what do you see??? and whom may I ask is going to build it?
If F-X is as close a reflection of the Raptor, as the B-21 is of the B-2, I'm in!

The article acknowledges there is LOT of talk in the Pentagon, for MORE Raptor's. That is in line with my Super-Raptor, more fuel, more fuel efficient F-135s, and a conversion to an F-35 systems architecture, that is far more readily upgradable??

In fact, they are very worried about heat signatures, I predict the thrust vectoring may be replaced by extended nozzles for a much cooler exhaust, possibly a cold air induction system that inducts "accelerated" KOLD air into an insulated nozzle for much kooler emmisions, remember, you heard it here "first". Brat
 
Last edited:
Are the people who say that they do not want more F-22s because they want an on-time FX actual career USAF personnel, or are they appointees?

well: “Because we want to do it faster and don’t want to do another 20-year development programme for a whole host of reasons, we’ll try and go with technology that are at a high readiness level now with manufacturing capabilities that are at a high readiness level now,” Lt Gen James Holmes tells a Senate Armed Services subcommittee panel in response to questions about restarting F-22 production.
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three stars, Jeff:
131018-F-PB123-114.JPG

I happen to believe that the two are not at all mutually exclusive. I I believe they can (and should) have both.
but for example
did you know
US Air Force Faces 500 Fighter Pilot Shortfall
?

source:
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and
Pentagon worried about dwindling USAF fighter numbers

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Jeff, is the future of the USAF as bright as you picture it? just a question from 5000+ miles away
 

Brumby

Major
well: “Because we want to do it faster and don’t want to do another 20-year development programme for a whole host of reasons, we’ll try and go with technology that are at a high readiness level now with manufacturing capabilities that are at a high readiness level now,” Lt Gen James Holmes tells a Senate Armed Services subcommittee panel in response to questions about restarting F-22 production.
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three stars, Jeff:
131018-F-PB123-114.JPG


but for example

and


Jeff, is the future of the USAF as bright as you picture it? just a question from 5000+ miles away

New generation fighters are highly complex, difficult to execute and incredibly expensive.

Ask the F-35 program’s current director for advice, and you’ll get this gentle warning: joint programs are hard.

“I’m not saying they’re bad. I’m not saying they’re good. I’m just saying they’re hard,” Air Force Lt. Gen. Christopher Bogdan said Thursday. “[Y]ou ought to think really hard about what you really need out of the sixth-generation fighter and how much overlap is there between what the Navy and the Air Force really need.”
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Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
three stars, Jeff:

Jeff, is the future of the USAF as bright as you picture it? just a question from 5000+ miles away
Jura, three stars does not mean he was not a political advancement/promotion or selection for the position he now holds.

As to the future...it will depnd on who wins the white House and the make up of the House and Senate .

I think that there is a good chance that there will be strong conservative leadership in all three. If that is the case...then the answer to your question is yes.

New generation fighters are highly complex, difficult to execute and incredibly expensive.
Yes they most certainly are.

The USAF is capable of both building more F-22s and moving forward with the F-X in a timely and good program management fashion.

Is that what will happen?

I hope it is. It would take some very srrong leadership...but I think it would absolutely be for the best.
 

Brumby

Major
The USAF is capable of both building more F-22s and moving forward with the F-X in a timely and good program management fashion.

Is that what will happen?

I hope it is. It would take some very srrong leadership...but I think it would absolutely be for the best.

The pathway forward is highly complex and is not clear to me that the USAF leadership has a unified view on how to address three key issues in their future overall force structure, i.e.

(a)A quantitative shortfall in 5th generation air superiority fighter due to the truncation of the F-22 program. There is one generation of misstep that would be very challenging to make good;

(b)An aging teen series of fighters that would be very challenging to replace on a one to one basis going forward;

upload_2016-3-12_9-47-7.png

(c) CAS support in low intensity operations that are not well suited by a future mix of increasingly high end air assets.

I think the USAF has unnecessarily bound itself into a 6th generation narrative which suggest a technology adoption profile rather than a narrative on graduated transitioning of an appropriate force structure to meet future threats. In my view the USAF should craft a two phase strategy narrative of technology adoption. The first phase would be the adoption of matured or near maturity technology that can bring such a plane into IOC within a 10 year time frame but making allowance in the airframe for expanded adoption of developing technology for phase 2. Phase one may simply be a souped up F-22 with F-35 type avionics/sensors mated to an ADVENT engine.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
USAF wants on-time F-X, not more F-22s

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Sorry AFB. It is not the type of news that you want to hear.

Well Bub, if you read what Holmes says, he states its entirely possible that we end up with competitors who bid an up-rated F-22 or F-35, and that we want the F-X sooner rather than later, so existing technologies may well be up-graded?

Have a look at the B-21 and what do you see??? and whom may I ask is going to build it?
If F-X is as close a reflection of the Raptor, as the B-21 is of the B-2, I'm in!

The article acknowledges there is LOT of talk in the Pentagon, for MORE Raptor's. That is in line with my Super-Raptor, more fuel, more fuel efficient F-135s, and a conversion to an F-35 systems architecture, that is far more readily upgradable??
The pathway forward is highly complex and is not clear to me that the USAF leadership has a unified view on how to address three key issues in their future overall force structure, i.e.

(a)A quantitative shortfall in 5th generation air superiority fighter due to the truncation of the F-22 program. There is one generation of misstep that would be very challenging to make good;

(b)An aging teen series of fighters that would be very challenging to replace on a one to one basis going forward;

View attachment 25770

(c) CAS support in low intensity operations that are not well suited by a future mix of increasingly high end air assets.

I think the USAF has unnecessarily bound itself into a 6th generation narrative which suggest a technology adoption profile rather than a narrative on graduated transitioning of an appropriate force structure to meet future threats. In my view the USAF should craft a two phase strategy narrative of technology adoption. The first phase would be the adoption of matured or near maturity technology that can bring such a plane into IOC within a 10 year time frame but making allowance in the airframe for expanded adoption of developing technology for phase 2. Phase one may simply be a souped up F-22 with F-35 type avionics/sensors mated to an ADVENT engine.

I absolutely agree, we would be worlds ahead in the near term with a 5.5 Raptor, uprated, fuel efficient, with F-35 architecture/sensors.

We have plenty of CAS assets, and the ever popular light-turboprop CAS aircraft ala Afghanistan, is always gonna be with us, but is of limited usefulness even in a relatively simple air campaign such as against ISIS, due to the proliferation of advanced and relatively cheap AA systems.
 
now I was thinking about
Jura, three stars does not mean he was not a political advancement/promotion or selection for the position he now holds.

...
... and I hope you didn't say that because you didn't share his views, Jeff ... after I've been following for two years "concurrency" projects of LCSs; Zumwalt Destroyers; Ford Superacarriers; (and the one I don't comment on anymore), it's clear to me the US Military should've instead gradually develop, gradually test, gradually manufacture, gradually field new options, not like scrambling many of them together and wait more than a decade for some Wunderwaffe, which only "ultimately" works (this is how I understood, or misunderstood, Lt Gen Holmes in
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/f-22-raptor-thread.t6557/page-57#post-392036
and will leave it at that)
 
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