China and Argentina re Falklands/Malvinas

counterprime

New Member
Registered Member
activities occurring within the last fifteen to twenty years and the current/existing trend of the United States to support democracies in Latin America.

USA is not even a democracy at home.

Study: US is an oligarchy, not a democracy
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or abroad..

General Wesley Clark: Wars Were Planned - Seven Countries In Five Years

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One could accuse me of cherry picking but they'd have to explain why the media singles out China for claiming tiny rocks (that they claimed 700+ years ago) is an act of "imperialistic aggression".
 

b787

Captain
What really scares me is the polarization of Latin America into two camps. The American side with democracy and freedom and the Chinese/Russian side with totalitarian regimes and closed economies.

will allow Brazil to become the United States in South America. Another concern is the influence that Russia is excreting in the region with nations like Cuba, Nicaragua, Venezuela, Peru, Argentina and Bolivia.





.

Well, that is my opinion at least.


Back to bottling my Grenache
You are totally right, Latin america has been divided in two fields, the Pro American north, and the pro Brazilian south, however there are no totalitarian regimes now n Latin American except Cuba, all the countries have presidents, Argentina, Venezuela, Ecuador, Bolivia and they were democratically elected.

The pro American side, like Mexico, aim to become north American, the pro-Brazilian side aims to bring China and Russia to counter the USA.

The pro-Brazilian side aims to create the South American Union, expel the US out of south America and create a supranational entity named South American UNASUR.

China and Russia have entered South america because Brazil is a BRICS nation and Argentina has followed Brazil`s example.

The problem of South American rivalries, is the fact there are still a lot of local ethnic and cultural differences between the nations, Cuba for example has African heritage, while Argentina has mostly a European based population, and Mexico, Bolivia and Peru are nations with a large native american base .

But China has entered south America and Latin America in general because it has taken the role of Europe and the USA had before, the need for role materials and manufactured goods are the true reasons behind China entering Latin america, in few words the economic decline of the west.

This has forced Argentina to go for Chinese goods, also the US made the mistake of supporting England in 1982 at the expense of its Latin american allies.

But from that to say Latin American will be under Chinese or Russian control, well that is not possible, China and Russia are far more distant culturally and geographically to hae an impact, the USA has something in common with us, the USA is becoming another Brazil ethnically speaking, in fact Uruguay is the most European nation in the Americas, having the largest percentage of Europeans as part of its population, even higher than the USA.

So in my opinion the US will compromise with us and China and Russia sooner or later will be major partners but they will be unable to control Latin America, and that is what Brazil and Mexico have accepted in their policies towards these superpowers
 

suby68

New Member
Registered Member
The crucial point is to improve the economy and the life standard in Argentina first. Only afterwards a well-equipped navy and air force is possible. This is how China managed to do it and without money Argentina will only be known for football players, debt-defaults and currency collapses.

It’s surprising how Argentina managed to spiral down from a country without a foreign debt in 1952 to where it is now. A good article of what went wrong is here:

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TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
The crucial point is to improve the economy and the life standard in Argentina first. Only afterwards a well-equipped navy and air force is possible. This is how China managed to do it and without money Argentina will only be known for football players, debt-defaults and currency collapses.

It’s surprising how Argentina managed to spiral down from a country without a foreign debt in 1952 to where it is now. A good article of what went wrong is here:

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If it can get its internal security and economic development in order, its possible that they might not even need the Navy and Air force to get its desires for the Falklands.
Through joint administration either long term or short term the Argentinian military role on the islands would likely fall more into one of Search and Rescue. And its likely other deals could be hammered out like the Antarctic. A multitude of nations have claims to the Antarctic but by position and treaty no one really can block another. If the UK and Argentina hammered a deal on the Falklands its possible they could change there operations in the Antarctic also to a joint ventures. Since the Antarctic treaty prevents military assets in the area security concerns are more or less irrelevant. With the primary purpose beings scientific and resources related.
 

b787

Captain
The crucial point is to improve the economy and the life standard in Argentina first. Only afterwards a well-equipped navy and air force is possible. This is how China managed to do it and without money Argentina will only be known for football players, debt-defaults and currency collapses.

It’s surprising how Argentina managed to spiral down from a country without a foreign debt in 1952 to where it is now. A good article of what went wrong is here:

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Argentina is not a poor nation, in fact Argentina has a high middle standard of living and development index.

69
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$24,800 2014 EST.
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$24,500 2014 EST.
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$24,500 2014 EST.
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$24,300 2014 EST.
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$23,900 2014 EST.
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$21,600 2014 EST.
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$20,500 2014 EST.


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Argentina’s HDI value for 2013 is 0.808— which is in the very high human development category— positioning the country at 49 out of 187 countries and territories. Between 1980 and 2013, Argentina’s HDI value increased from 0.665 to 0.808, an increase of 21.5 percent or an average annual increase of about 0.59 percent
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The problem of Argentina is more political than economic, Argentina in 1982 was anti communist, basically was in the same side of England, the decline of Argentina has been because in 1900 it was one of the richest countries on earth comparable to what today is Australia or Norway, so for Argentina the real problem is they are a Western Society, an European society transplanted to the Americas like Canada or the USA, so an alliance with China was kind of difficult to happen, but like Russia, it was the US and England that pushed Argentina to China`s sphere of influence, but Argentina is basically a nation that has its origins in Spain and Italy, so an alliance with Russia and China is kind of weird for them, they are like Russia, a nation that is western but has been pushed out of the USA-EU block by the policies of England.

Brazil has pushed Argentina to the BRICS because the ultimate plan of Brazil is become the center of South America, and the core nation in South america, that will require a weak Argentina, a Mexico out of south America and a weaken US and European influence, that can only be gotten if China and Russia provide tech transfers and replace the western investment and export markets.
 

kwaigonegin

Colonel
The crucial point is to improve the economy and the life standard in Argentina first. Only afterwards a well-equipped navy and air force is possible. This is how China managed to do it and without money Argentina will only be known for football players, debt-defaults and currency collapses.

It’s surprising how Argentina managed to spiral down from a country without a foreign debt in 1952 to where it is now. A good article of what went wrong is here:

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Argentina is a good case study on how a badly managed and corrupt politicial process can ruin a country that had so much going for it.

Unlike the other hundred failed states in the last century, Argentina is very unique because it had/still do a highly educated population, a peaceful country, good human capital, lots of resources, no internal strife be it racial, religious etc and YET because of bad governance the country is what it is today.
If managed right Argentina could've easily have been the superpower of SA today.

To top things off, I also remember reading somewhere (maybe Mirage can confirm) that right after WWII a boatload of brilliant German scientists, engineers etc emigrated/hid in Argentina. Imagined if the government had properly cultivated and use those men to develop their aerospace, infrastructure, transportation etc industries.

Argentina had THE perfect receipe to have easily become a top producing economy but the cooks decided to use the canned chef boyardee instead.

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Miragedriver

Brigadier
The crucial point is to improve the economy and the life standard in Argentina first. Only afterwards a well-equipped navy and air force is possible. This is how China managed to do it and without money Argentina will only be known for football players, debt-defaults and currency collapses.

It’s surprising how Argentina managed to spiral down from a country without a foreign debt in 1952 to where it is now. A good article of what went wrong is here:

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The standard of living is quite good and don't forget about the world famous beef!

Argentina has become an example of what socialist and large trade unions that control politicians can do to a nation. The unfortunate reality is that the nation reached the tipping point almost two decades ago. There are more people on government subsidies than who pay taxes.

As Benjamin Franklin said: When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.


Back to bottling my Grenache
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
Argentina is a good case study on how a badly managed and corrupt politicial process can ruin a country that had so much going for it.

Unlike the other hundred failed states in the last century, Argentina is very unique because it had/still do a highly educated population, a peaceful country, good human capital, lots of resources, no internal strife be it racial, religious etc and YET because of bad governance the country is what it is today.
If managed right Argentina could've easily have been the superpower of SA today.

To top things off, I also remember reading somewhere (maybe Mirage can confirm) that right after WWII a boatload of brilliant German scientists, engineers etc emigrated/hid in Argentina. Imagined if the government had properly cultivated and use those men to develop their aerospace, infrastructure, transportation etc industries.

Argentina had THE perfect receipe to have easily become a top producing economy but the cooks decided to use the canned chef boyardee instead.


Absolutely on target!

Argentina was dealt a very good hand and they played it very poorly indeed. Due to politicians that were more concerned about their political future as opposed to that of the nation. It helps if you have a population that is enjoying the benefits of middle class and cannot be bothered by the antics of “those politicians”. Eventually they robbed the nest.

by the way for all of you that study economy. Argentina has been using the New Keynesian economic model for the last 16 years. We can all see how well that has gone:rolleyes:



Back to bottling my Grenache
 
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Miragedriver

Brigadier
....... however there are no totalitarian regimes now n Latin American except Cuba, all the countries have presidents, Argentina, Venezuela, Ecuador, Bolivia and they were democratically elected........

Mi amigo. I use the term loosely since can one really call Venezuela, Argentina and Bolivia a “democracy” when the unions buy the elections and there is only a one party majority (rule) in the nation. La Presidenta in Argentina, Mr. Maduro in Venezuela and Mr. Chavez in Bolivia basically rule by presidential decree (by fiat) and the congress (the same party) applauds every mandate with approval.

So yes we can say they are a democracy on paper. However, it walks like a duck and talks like a duck then it must be a duck….


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Miragedriver

Brigadier
I think I need to steer this conversation to the intent of the original poster. Due to Argentina’s current economic and political agenda there are only a limited number of options available to upgrade and modernize the military to defend the nation.

Options and reality
Russia just wants money and is willing to trade food as part of the payment. However that leaves the question of Argentina paying the remaining portion with money.

On the other hand the China Development Bank has agreed on a $4.7 billion loan to build two hydroelectric dams in Patagonia. A Chinese and an Argentine company both won contracts to build the dams.

Another loan of $2.1 billion was given to build a railroad "that would make it more efficient to transport grains from Argentina's agricultural plains to its ports. Currently Argentina is China's largest trading partner after Brazil and produces soybeans, of which China is the largest buyer.

To further improve the two countries trade relations, Xi signed a three-year deal for an $11 billion swap operation between the central banks of Argentina and China that will let the Latin American country pay for Chinese imports with the yuan currency.

The Economy
So while the talent from Argentina with its multitudes of professionals, it won’t be able to help heal Argentina’s troubles. For that, Argentina needs stable, inclusive institutions -- civil society, a stable democracy, a state that tries to encourage economic development instead of lurching from crisis to crisis. That is something that, for now, no economic theory can tell us how to create.


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