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[asif iqbal]

Check the list!!!!

Wow just wow

15 AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters
32 T-700 GE 401C Engines (30 installed and 2 spares)
1000 AGM-114 R Hellfire II Missiles in containers
36 H-1 Technical Refresh Mission computers
17 AN/AAQ-30 Target Sight Systems
30 629F-23 Ultra High Frequency/Very High Frequency Communication Systems
19 H-764 Embedded Global Positioning System/Inertial Navigation Systems
32 Helmet Mounted Display/Optimized Top Owl
17 APX-117A Identification Friend or Foe
17 AN/AAR-47 Missile Warning Systems
17 AN/ALE-47 Countermeasure Dispenser Sets
18 AN/APR-39C(V)2 Radar Warning Receivers
15 Joint Mission Planning Systems
17 M197 20mm Gun Systems.

 

[kwaigonegin]

Check the list!!!!

Wow just wow

15 AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters
32 T-700 GE 401C Engines (30 installed and 2 spares)
1000 AGM-114 R Hellfire II Missiles in containers
36 H-1 Technical Refresh Mission computers
17 AN/AAQ-30 Target Sight Systems
30 629F-23 Ultra High Frequency/Very High Frequency Communication Systems
19 H-764 Embedded Global Positioning System/Inertial Navigation Systems
32 Helmet Mounted Display/Optimized Top Owl
17 APX-117A Identification Friend or Foe
17 AN/AAR-47 Missile Warning Systems
17 AN/ALE-47 Countermeasure Dispenser Sets
18 AN/APR-39C(V)2 Radar Warning Receivers
15 Joint Mission Planning Systems
17 M197 20mm Gun Systems.

Very good package and it's a done deal because the State Dept just cleared this FMS to Pakistan!

That's about as good as any attack helo can get outside of 64 Echo. Noticed the equipment are all geared for ground assault, asymetric warfare because Pakistan will use it primarily for anti terrorist missions in Warizistan etc.

No SAMs like Stingers but AGMs and navigational equipment and sensors suited for terrain mappings, night missions and pop up attacks as well as active countermeasures like the AN/ALE-47 effective against MANPADS.

This is especially true of the Hellfire Romeo with pilot selected types of blast fragmentation. Good for used not only against armor but soft vehicles and 'caves', sand dunes etc with thermobaric capabilities as well.

Hellfire systems product manager US Army Lt. Col. Mike Brown:

“One of the most noticeable operational enhancements in the AGM-114R missile is that the pilot can now select the [blast type] while on the move and without having to have a pre-set mission load prior to departure… This is a big deal in insurgency warfare, as witnessed in Afghanistan where the Taliban are fighting in the open and simultaneously planning their next attacks in amongst the local populace using fixed structure facilities to screen their presence.” ....

 

[asif iqbal]

Yes the deal has been on the table for years and I remember reading in 2009 that surplus Zulu would go to Pakistan In 2015 and I was thinking that is ages away but here is 2015 and here comes the Zulus

AH-1Z with Hellfire is the best PAA can get nothing would beat that

I hope they can follow this up with another 35 x AH-1Z to finally replace all AH-1 Cobras by 2020

But the 15 will essentially form a another sqaudron and replace some of the oldest and damaged PAA Cobras

 

[kwaigonegin]

Yes the deal has been on the table for years and I remember reading in 2009 that surplus Zulu would go to Pakistan In 2015 and I was thinking that is ages away but here is 2015 and here comes the Zulus

AH-1Z with Hellfire is the best PAA can get nothing would beat that

I hope they can follow this up with another 35 x AH-1Z to finally replace all AH-1 Cobras by 2020

But the 15 will essentially form a another sqaudron and replace some of the oldest and damaged PAA Cobras

15 is a good initial start but if you add 25 more will make 40 and your friendly neighbor may get nervous and complain even if replaced one a one for one basis. Keep in mind that the Zulu and certainly the weapons it can carry is over a generation ahead in capabilities and a force multiplier even if based on same basic airframe compared to the Sierras and Foxtrots PAA has today.

 

[asif iqbal]

Question for the State department always is "will the military sale change the balance of power in the region" if the answer is "yes" then two things happen, one what is the alternative and second can they trim down the numbers

This why only 15 units have been put up front but times have changed and now other options are out, Russia is marketing the Mi35 politically that deal is done and China has supplied Z-10 units both markets in the past were off limits so let's see and wait what else happens

15 helos is still a good deal and a good number, not only that they are coming with Hellfire missiles

In the 1980s Pakistan did get 20 x AH-1 but with many systems removed and were not night capable this deal is for 15 units but the package is a killer ! It will give PAA a capability which they do not have

Let's wait and see what the time line for the deliverys are but my guess is they will be fast

 

[Jeff Head]

Interesting...the timing of the gift of 3 + 2 new Chinese attack helos...followed within days by this approval and announcement.

Seems like Pakistan is getting a lot of attention and a lot of business overtures for their attack helicopter market.

As has been said, IMHO, outside of the AH-64E Apaches, it does not get much better than this for Pakistan. And since they are already familiar with the earlier Cobras, the transition to the Vipers will come fairly naturally.

 

[Ultra]

You need to adjust your numbers a bit, the current dollar cost of the USS Nimitz would be close to 9 billion USD. So the Ford class with a number of new technologies that are made to reduce overall operating costs by 4 billion USD over a 50 year life, generate 25% more sorties, and reduce the number of US lives on the line is a bargain.

I am curious - where did you get the $9 billion dollar number from?
I would be happy to know too.



Now, from the wiki (which you can check the reference which linked to USN's own document) :


"The final carrier of the class, USS George H.W. Bush, was designed as a "transition ship" from the Nimitz class to the replacement

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. Bush incorporates new technologies including improved propeller and

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designs, a reduced

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and electronic and environmental upgrades. As a result, the ship's cost was $6.2 billion. The earlier Nimitz class ships each cost around $4.5 billion."


Note that they priced the Ford class as a quite affordable upgrade of only $6.2 billion - but now it is more likely to balloon to $15 billion (currently it is already $13 billion and still rising - not including various sub systems cost which is tally seperately.)

 

[Ultra]

Moderator please delete - accidental post while editing my previous post.

 

[Ultra]

The Harry Truman cost almost $5 billion in its day's dollar. The George Bush cost almost $6.5 billion, the last of the Nimitz class.

Both were mature designs that did not have to be burdened with R&D costs. So the multiple is not 3x to 4x or even close. And when you factor in the additional huge costs because of the 1st in class, it becomes even less so.

You are right, I didn't check the last Nimitz - George Bush is indeed costing $6.5 billion to build. I guess the inflation really does effect a lot into the number.

The Ford is cutting edge and there is a huge R&D cost. They are going to be expensive. Those initial costs always color the 1st (and in some cases depending on the level of advancement the 2nd and 3rd) in class.

Agree, the first of its class are often the most expensive, and the cost of construction (provided the inflation doesn't take off) will almost always fall as efficiency in manufacturing and mass production decrease the over all cost.

 

[Ultra]

15 is a good initial start but if you add 25 more will make 40 and your friendly neighbor may get nervous and complain even if replaced one a one for one basis. Keep in mind that the Zulu and certainly the weapons it can carry is over a generation ahead in capabilities and a force multiplier even if based on same basic airframe compared to the Sierras and Foxtrots PAA has today.

I doubt India will complain since they are getting the 61 AH-64D Apache. Even if US allows Pakistan to buy 40 of AH-1Z it still pose no threat to India. And I don't believe Cobra can go toe to toe with the Apache. So never mind the numbers.