Thoughts on the Chinese Civil War

solarz

Brigadier
2. Chairman Mao had never been in charge of the secret frontline. The supreme leader of CCP's deepcover network had always been Premier Zhou Enlai.
3. Most of them were not "sent" into KMT, actually, they betrayed their side and come to CCP. Then they develop the network under the coordinate and lead of underground CCP branches as well as become part of them. It was not difficult to find a gatekeeper hence the CCP was associated with KMT deeply because of their coopration in 1921-27.

That's correct, and the reason Zhou was in charge of Intelligence was precisely because of his close relationships with key KMT officials.

It's important to remember that at one point, many KMT government officials were also Communist party members, but were purged by Jiang in his infamous mass execution campaigns. Obviously many managed to stay under the radar but retained their communist sympathies, and Zhou was able to use that to convince them to become agents.
 

lightspeed

Junior Member
the CCP spies in the KMT had served with no real distinctions and honors in the military during the anti-Japanese war. it was regrettable that they just can't make it against the foreign enemy, the Japanese invaders, but were so resourceful against the domestic enemy, the KMT. Zhou Fohai facilitated Wang Jingwei's defection to the Japanese invaders. the key leaders of Wang Jingwei's puppet administration were all Communists, eg. Chen Gongbo, Zhou Fohai, Li Shiqun, etc. that really tell a lot about the Communists.
 

solarz

Brigadier
the CCP spies in the KMT had served with no real distinctions and honors in the military during the anti-Japanese war. it was regrettable that they just can't make it against the foreign enemy, the Japanese invaders, but were so resourceful against the domestic enemy, the KMT. Zhou Fohai facilitated Wang Jingwei's defection to the Japanese invaders. the key leaders of Wang Jingwei's puppet administration were all Communists, eg. Chen Gongbo, Zhou Fohai, Li Shiqun, etc. that really tell a lot about the Communists.

Oh for chrissake, enough of your anti-communist propaganda.

The CPC won and the KMT lost. It's been over 60 years. Get over it.
 

wtlh

Junior Member
the CCP spies in the KMT had served with no real distinctions and honors in the military during the anti-Japanese war. it was regrettable that they just can't make it against the foreign enemy, the Japanese invaders, but were so resourceful against the domestic enemy, the KMT. Zhou Fohai facilitated Wang Jingwei's defection to the Japanese invaders. the key leaders of Wang Jingwei's puppet administration were all Communists, eg. Chen Gongbo, Zhou Fohai, Li Shiqun, etc. that really tell a lot about the Communists.

You just have to ask this:

How on earth did these seemingly "incompetent", "traitorous" people with "no achievements" within the KMT---as you see them---land in these all so important posts, and all so trusted by Chiang?

Doesn't your argument reflect the dysfunctional nature of the KMT organisation and Chiang's skills or even intelligence more than anything else?

It is either:

1) the KMT top leadership were all idiots and halfwits, OR
2) your argument is completely devoid from reality

It can only be one of the two above.
 

Phoenix_Rising

Junior Member
the CCP spies in the KMT had served with no real distinctions and honors in the military during the anti-Japanese war. it was regrettable that they just can't make it against the foreign enemy, the Japanese invaders, but were so resourceful against the domestic enemy, the KMT. Zhou Fohai facilitated Wang Jingwei's defection to the Japanese invaders. the key leaders of Wang Jingwei's puppet administration were all Communists, eg. Chen Gongbo, Zhou Fohai, Li Shiqun, etc. that really tell a lot about the Communists.

That really tells a lot about that
1. you don't know enough about these people and this period of history you were talking about.
2. or...how ridiculous the translation software could be that cannot identify a Chinese word "叛徒(TRAITOR)".
3. or you are just another poor guy failed to immune m/b/trillions of brainwashing anti-communism/anti-China propoganda on mainstream western media.


These three men had been communists, but they betrayed CCP douzens of years before the Sino-Japan war bursted.


In its early ages, CCP was quite like a salon of progressive bourgeois and intellectuals. They were passionate, romantic as well as impatient and weak. What you think they would do when they:

1.realized the consequences of socialism revolution would harm their and their families' benefit, because they were part of oppressor class?

2.were living in the shadow of stigma, listed as most-wanted, getting arrested & tortured instead of gaining fortune and fame?

3.found out the job of revolution could never be achieved by only writting books or signning declarations or giving orders, but takes hard, detailed and complicated works like living on rations even less than other people, leading charge in bulletstorm, sweating on fields/ at construction sites/ in manual workshops?

4.found out the mass didn't just listen and follow. The revolutionaries had to win their trust before they donate their tiny but sincere help. Shook collus-covered hands of those who work in dirts? Not even close. What would these talented and learned people feel as they lived together with those who were not able to read or write, only cared about pennies in everyday life, knew nothing about the world outside the village, and would 100% misunderstand every word of their lecture?

Zeal fades. It is just IMPOSSIBLE to support one's disire of revolution by self-satisfaction and romantics.
Thus, so many CCP's early members failed to survive the long-term and fierce ordeal.


Yes, Zhou and Chen were representative of CCP's first National Convention(July 1921) where CCP was formally found. Their name and photo are still displayed in the National Museum located next to Tiananmen Square, among others of "the founders of the party". The fact of history needs respect.

But they are traitors anyway.


Chen Gongbo quited even before the party's first anniversary. He directly violated the order of splitting up with anti-revolution warlord Chen Jiongming after he bombarded Sun Yet-seen's president office in June 1922, instead, he wrote articles to support Chen Jiongming. Later He refused to follow the request from the Party Central Committee, which asked him to come back to Shanghai to explain his action and respond the query within the party. futhermore, he accused current General Secretary Chen Duxiu for disturbing his overseas study. Finally, he decalred him was no longer contained by the party and break with it, in public.

CCP was, and still is, not good at sending someone who wanna quit to meet the Buddha as KMT did. So Mr.Chen successfully freed himself and went to study abroad.

He came back to China in April 1925, joined KMT immediately, then got promoted rapidly with care from Wang Jingwei. Chen lost power and influence as Wang lost the supreme seat of KMT to Chiang. He hesitated a lot after Wang made agreement with Japanese in Nov. 1938, but finally decided to follow Wang in Dec.20th, 1938. He arrived Nanking in March 1940 and joined Wang's traitor puppet government. That was nearly 18 years after he broke up with CCP.


Zhou Fohai quited CCP in Sept. 1924. In fact, he decoupled from the party organization right after the party's first meeting. Due to the threat of Japanese police or his own weakness, who knows? After he finished study in Japan and came back to China in 1924, KMT right wing elder Dai Jitao appointed him as Secretery of Propoganda Ministy and offered him a job as college professor. The disunity between Zhou and the party were getting worse and worse as time and tide changed. Finally, one family affair triggered it. His wife kept complaining about to hand in 1/6 of Zhou's decent income as dues. He was monthly payed 200 from KMT, and 240 from college(silver dollars), huge money at that time. Using this as excuse, Zhou wrote letters to CCP's Guangzhou Excutive Commitee, requesting quit. Even though the commitee principal( should be Zhou En-lai if my memory isn't wrong) repeatedly did ideological work to him, Zhou Fuhai insisted. So, “in order to purify the organization of the party”, CCP approved his departure.

Zhou Fuhai proved his loyality to KMT by devoting into anti-CCP business. He claimed "attacking CCP is my responsibility and my obligation(攻击共产党,是我的责任,是我的义务)". That was 1924, still in the first CCP-KMT alliance, remember? He became one of nine core circle leaders of CC, and a top leader of facsistic organization "the Blueshirts", which reorganized into Bureau of Investigation and Statistics.

Zhou spreaded capitulationism after the war began, absconddd to Hanoi in Dec. 1938, found the puppet government in March 1940. Same path as Wang Jingwei and Chen Gongbo. I am really curious about where the bottom line of KMT's incapability was set, for these capitulationists could spread their expression without liability, gathered as "low-profile club(低调俱乐部)" undiscovered, and just flew abroad in civil aviation.

Li Shiqun was caught by CC in 1932. He failed to hold his belief under CC agents' fierce torture and defected. He didn't confess others in connections with him, maybe for conscience, or in order to keep his treason a secret. As the CCP underground branch was confused about his loyalty, the organization wanted him prove himself by assassinating another traitor Ding Mocun, who had already sold out all comrades he knew. Li confirmed himself's stand: he came to Ding, and told him everything. These two men were the No.1&2 of "Institution76", the spy organization of Wang's puppet regime.


So what can people learn about the relation between CCP and these traitors? They betrayed CCP and gave it harsh attack years before the Sino-Jap war began.


What is your purpose of bonding them up together?
 
Last edited:

Phoenix_Rising

Junior Member
Oh, I think his purpose is pretty clear...
There is no way to win a debate on internet. For there is no judge but countless audience, and all words are displayed 7/24. Only very few people who have a heart wide enough could simply admit "i'm wrong".
I do not really care about his purpose. I just want to help those who is watching this thread build up a proper vision on the history of China's 20th century. I give everyone facts I know, with "who, when, where, what, why, and how". I leave questions just to inspire them to question "Really? Is that true? Why it is so different from what I was told?" Even though someone points out my mistake with reliable datas after consulting them, that could only make my victory beyond doubt. For one more pal overseas struggle out of the invisible cage in mind built and fortified by western-media's hagemony in right of speech, and I increase my knowledge simultaneoussly.O(∩_∩)O
 
Last edited:

Lezt

Junior Member
Oh, I think his purpose is pretty clear...
I don't think his purpose is clear; nor does sarcasm help. What he have stated is also a truth. There are Hanjain from both the KMT and CCP. His statement could be an inference of lack of moral high ground from either side, or that he is somewhat against the CCP; or is just arguing or a whole host of other possibilities.

There is no way to win a debate on internet. For there is no judge but countless audience, and all words are displayed 7/24. Only very few people who have a heart wide enough could simply admit "i'm wrong".
I do not really care about his purpose. I just want to help those who is watching this thread build up a proper vision on the history of China's 20th century. I give everyone facts I know, with "who, when, where, what, why, and how". I leave questions just to inspire them to question "Really? Is that's true? Why it is so different from what I was told?" Even though someone points out my mistake with reliable datas after consulting them, that could only make my victory beyond doubt. For one more pal overseas struggle out of the invisible cage in mind built and fortified by western-media's hagemony in right of speech, and I increase my knowledge simultaneoussly.O(∩_∩)O

Well, the first thing is, this is a forum - which a forum is for discussion which can turn into debates or arguments. But discussions do not have victors; and the concept of winning is against the concept of discussing. The other is, it is easy to label the other caged by western media. But that is a speculation and not a fact; and it is also impossible to prove either way.

Thus what I am saying is, guys, this is a forum, we can agree to disagree and remain cordial and respectful. there is no need to be cynical, sarcastic, belittle what others have said. It is something we are all guilty of, but we should be aware of our own.
 

solarz

Brigadier
I don't think his purpose is clear; nor does sarcasm help. What he have stated is also a truth. There are Hanjain from both the KMT and CCP. His statement could be an inference of lack of moral high ground from either side, or that he is somewhat against the CCP; or is just arguing or a whole host of other possibilities.

I'm sorry, but when somebody continuously brings up the same half-truths, distortions, and baseless speculations while ignoring all counter points, it is no longer a discussion.

I do believe there is a technical term for that kind of behavior.
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
sorry, its a different topic. I read sometime ago somewhere .... that during the civil war, Mao had a hard time from most warlords, even Mao was humiliated by them and Mao accepted that for the bigger goal (obviously, to win the war). And everybody knows that Mao won the war and after he had won, in no time Mao "killed" all the warloads who humiliated him

Anybody knows the full story of that .. I'd like to read it in detail
 
Top