J-15 carrier-borne fighter thread

[Equation]

It's sad to see the two deaths occurred during testing on the Liaoning, but I don't think in anyway it would hamper the program. It's a deadly learning process, but the pay off will be big in the end as the PLAN progress it's carrier program.

 

[bd popeye]

True, any loss of life is regrettable.

Nevertheless, the lessons from their deaths will be well applied

Exactly. Well stated. Accidents with military aircraft do happen and unfortunately there is sometimes a loss of life.

As methodical as the Chinese proceed with this CV programme I hope they do not allow this accident to deter their progress in their progression in the PLAN CV programme.

 

[longmarch]

Re: PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme..News & Views

新华网北京8月27日电
中央军委主席习近平日前签署命令，给1个单位、1名个人授予荣誉称号。

授予空军某试飞大队“英雄试飞大队”荣誉称号

命令指出，长期以来，该大队坚持以发展民族航空事业和建设强大空中力量为使命，教育引导试飞员把个人理想融入强军实践，官兵始终保持了旺盛斗志；积极探索理论、参与设计、试验飞行，圆满完成各项试验试飞任务，填补我国航空领域13项空白；自觉抵制诱惑、坦然面对生死，多次挑战装备和生理极限，有2名同志献出生命。特别是为圆满完成歼－15飞机在辽宁舰上成功实施阻拦着舰和滑跃起飞任务做出重大贡献。

The original source never said or hinted the two died testing J15. What it did say:
-This is to honour the long time contribution from this unit
-Two pilots from this unit died on their job
-This unit made great contribution to J-15 carriar program.

In fact, the word 圆满 indicate that the two deaths were not related to J15, at least not at sea. Otherwise it cannot be called 圆满。

 

[Jeff Head]

Re: PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme..News & Views

新华网北京8月27日电
中央军委主席习近平日前签署命令，给1个单位、1名个人授予荣誉称号。

授予空军某试飞大队“英雄试飞大队”荣誉称号

命令指出，长期以来，该大队坚持以发展民族航空事业和建设强大空中力量为使命，教育引导试飞员把个人理想融入强军实践，官兵始终保持了旺盛斗志；积极探索理论、参与设计、试验飞行，圆满完成各项试验试飞任务，填补我国航空领域13项空白；自觉抵制诱惑、坦然面对生死，多次挑战装备和生理极限，有2名同志献出生命。特别是为圆满完成歼－15飞机在辽宁舰上成功实施阻拦着舰和滑跃起飞任务做出重大贡献。

The original source never said or hinted the two died testing J15. What it did say:
-This is to honour the long time contribution from this unit
-Two pilots from this unit died on their job
-This unit made great contribution to J-15 carriar program.

In fact, the word 圆满 indicate that the two deaths were not related to J15, at least not at sea. Otherwise it cannot be called 圆满。

Thanks for the detail and clarification.

I am sure we lose some in the translation. It would be interesting to know further details, but at least we are getting something more now.

 

[Deino]

Re: PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme..News & Views

Thanks a lot for posting this .....

新华网北京8月27日电
中央军委主席习近平日前签署命令，给1个单位、1名个人授予荣誉称号。

授予空军某试飞大队“英雄试飞大队”荣誉称号

命令指出，长期以来，该大队坚持以发展民族航空事业和建设强大空中力量为使命，教育引导试飞员把个人理想融入强军实践，官兵始终保持了旺盛斗志；积极探索理论、参与设计、试验飞行，圆满完成各项试验试飞任务，填补我国航空领域13项空白；自觉抵制诱惑、坦然面对生死，多次挑战装备和生理极限，有2名同志献出生命。特别是为圆满完成歼－15飞机在辽宁舰上成功实施阻拦着舰和滑跃起飞任务做出重大贡献。

The original source never said or hinted the two died testing J15. What it did say:
-This is to honour the long time contribution from this unit
-Two pilots from this unit died on their job
-This unit made great contribution to J-15 carriar program.

In fact, the word 圆满 indicate that the two deaths were not related to J15, at least not at sea. Otherwise it cannot be called 圆满。

.... and it seems at the CDF (see

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) there are also a few quite upset about the English version.

Here's a post by 'cmdjing'

God damn reporters are lazy/fucking incompetent, particularly when they don't actually speak the language.

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The original news article in Chinese is here. It mentions two "comrades" gave their lives, but does not identify them as pilots. The video goes into detail as to who was given commendations.

... also from 'yexu':

This is fake news. Actually the unit citation said two test pilots had died in the history of this unit. The accidents actually happened in the 1990's. They have nothing to do with the carrier. It's a case of poor understanding of Chinese, and a classic case of how rumors and fake news spread these days, everyone quoting everyone else. Another recent example was the alleged failure of the Wu-14 supersonic flight test.

Giving a hint that the Chinese editor for the English version is simply faking - for whatever reason - the news:

Yes, I do mean that. The original Chinese is quite clear. The English services of Chinese news organizations are notoriously poor.

From former test pilot Xu Yongling, the two test pilots died three years ago, had nothing to do with the carrier. Probably test flying the J11BS?

Deino

 

[Deino]

I would love to see this configuration in real ....

 

[Deino]

 

[thunderchief]

Considering engines for J-15, beside reliability, one of the main factors will be maximum thrust. Unlike land-based fighters, J-15 has only relatively short deck to work with. More powerful engines would mean greater acceleration for same weight, or same acceleration with greater weight (i.e. more useful payload ) . In this regard, WS-10A would be better alternative then regular Al-31F . But if China purchases Al-31F M1 or even M2, then I would say they would be used in serial J-15s .

 

[nemo]

Considering engines for J-15, beside reliability, one of the main factors will be maximum thrust. Unlike land-based fighters, J-15 has only relatively short deck to work with. More powerful engines would mean greater acceleration for same weight, or same acceleration with greater weight (i.e. more useful payload ) . In this regard, WS-10A would be better alternative then regular Al-31F . But if China purchases Al-31F M1 or even M2, then I would say they would be used in serial J-15s .

Actually, I expect the production aircraft to us *marinized* WS-10A for increased tolerance to salt. I don't think Russian would sell the engine they used for Su-33 -- for they are rather angry about J-15 and reopening production facility would be rather expensive. Using regular AL-31F is fine for prototypes because they can afford higher maintenance, but not the production aircraft, which need to minimize the maintenance. Even if WS-10A is less reliable than AL-31F, the safety issue is already taken cared of by using two engines.

 

[Blackstone]

Actually, I expect the production aircraft to us *marinized* WS-10A for increased tolerance to salt. I don't think Russian would sell the engine they used for Su-33 -- for they are rather angry about J-15 and reopening production facility would be rather expensive. Using regular AL-31F is fine for prototypes because they can afford higher maintenance, but not the production aircraft, which need to minimize the maintenance. Even if WS-10A is less reliable than AL-31F, the safety issue is already taken cared of by using two engines.

Pinkov, who isn't regarded as highly reliable by SDF posters, quoted Chinese and Russian military sources on continued problems with WS-10A engines to the point where PLA forces are removing them from their aircraft queues and inserting AL-31Fs. Take it for what it's worth, since we're talking about Kanwa, but they're not wrong 100% of the time, and there's enough bad history of Chinese jet engine development to believe a good part of it. WA-10x project has been mediocre at best, and may very well die an un-glorified death when the PLA finally pulls the plug.

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China is unable to produce advanced fighters such as the J-15 and the J-16 in large numbers because it lacks the proper engines to power the aircraft, according to the Moscow-based Military-Industrial Courier on Sept. 8.

According to Kanwa Defense Review, a magazine operated by military analyst Andrei Chang, also known as Pinkov, China is not even capable of producing J-11B fighters due to problems with Shenyang Liming Aircraft Engine Company's WS-10A engine. Similar problems led the People's Liberation Army Navy to cancel their plans to install the WS-10A in the J-15, a carrier-based fighter designed to serve aboard the Liaoning, China's first aircraft carrier.

Both the PLA Air Force and Navy Air Force have asked to replace the WS-10A with the more reliable Russian-built AL-31F engines, the magazine stated. China is unlikely to get enough AL-31F engines to power all of its J-15 and J-16 fighters when production starts on the aircraft however. The only option left for China is to stop producing more advanced fighters until it is capable of designing the engines the aircraft need.

Sources from the Chinese aviation industry told the Military-Industrial Courier that the PLA is losing its patience with the WS-10A engines. Without proper competition among state-run engine producers, the source said that China is unable to design the engines it needs to power its new aircraft. The Central Military Commission of the Communist Party of China suggested that the PLA Air Force use domestic engines anyway to boost the economy.