World News Thread & Breaking News!!

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bd popeye

The Last Jedi
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By ANDREW JACOBS JULY 28, 2014
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BEIJING — In another sign of the authorities’ efforts to contain one of China’s fastest-growing religions, a government demolition campaign against public symbols of the Christian faith has toppled crosses at two more churches in the coastal province of Zhejiang, according to residents there.

On Monday, public security officials in the city of Wenzhou used a crane and blowtorch to cut loose the red, 10-foot crucifix that had adorned the Longgang Township Gratitude Church, witnesses said. Unlike in previous confrontations between the police and parishioners that have unfolded in recent months, the congregants did not offer resistance.

“We didn’t want to get in a fight with them, but obviously what they did was illegal,” said the Rev. Qu Linuo, a pastor from a nearby church, who was among the crowd of believers who held an overnight vigil before the police arrived.

On Friday, congregants at the Wenling Church in the city of Taizhou faced off with as many as 4,000 police officers but ultimately failed to prevent the removal of two crosses from atop their building. One congregant said as many as 40 people were detained during the standoff.

Since early spring, the authorities in Zhejiang Province have issued demolition notices to more than 100 churches, saying their structures violated zoning regulations. Most of the targeted churches are state-approved, in contrast to so-called underground congregations that are frequently targeted by the authorities.

Officials have been largely taking aim at church steeples and their crosses, but in April the authorities tore down the Sanjiang Church, a highly visible landmark in Wenzhou, saying the entire structure violated building codes. The church, which stood along a highway, had been previously cited by the local government as a model project.

Church leaders and analysts say the battle in Zhejiang, one of China’s wealthiest provinces, highlights the Chinese leadership’s discomfort with the growing allure of Christianity, whose adherents are said to rival in number the 86 million members of the Communist Party.

The crackdown on Christianity in Zhejiang also coincides with a nationwide campaign that has been directed at legal rights defenders, pro-democracy advocates and liberal online commentators.

Although the government has cited zoning rules in its fight against the churches, a provincial policy paper suggests that there may be other reasons, advising officials to use the zoning language in an effort to avoid international scrutiny.

“This is crucial to investigate and prosecute from the perspective of laws and regulations to avoid inviting heavy criticism,” according to the Working Document Concerning the Realization of Handling of Illegal Religious Buildings, which began circulating last summer.

Local officials could not be reached for comment on Monday.

Elsewhere in Zhejiang, one of China’s oldest Catholic churches, a 19th-century structure built by French missionaries in the coastal city of Ningbo, was gutted early Monday by a fire that reportedly began at the altar, according to the state news media. There were no immediate indications that the fire had been deliberately set, but news of the conflagration was likely to heighten the belief among Christians that they are under siege.

Across Zhejiang, scores of congregations have organized round-the-clock lookout teams to watch for arriving demolition crews. At Salvation Church in Wenzhou, more than 100 parishioners have been standing sentinel since July 21, when a pitched battle between the police and congregants left more than 50 parishioners injured, some seriously. Although the director of the church, facing intense government pressure, said he would allow the cross to be removed, congregants have vowed to resist.

At the Wenling Church in Taizhou, congregants said hundreds of Christians sang hymns at daybreak on Friday as the riot police surrounded the church, which is anchored by a distinctive clock tower capped by a bright red cross. In a phone interview, one of them, Lemon Huang, said the show of force was overwhelming and unnecessary. “Some wore police uniforms, with helmets and shields, some were plainclothes police and some wore red armbands — just like the Red Guards during the Cultural Revolution,” Ms. Huang said.

After a daylong effort that required a towering crane and an electric buzz saw, workers removed the church’s two crosses and carted them away.

A similar scene unfolded on Monday at the Longgang Township Gratitude Church. Mr. Qu, the pastor from the nearby church, said about 200 people, some in their 70s and 80s, who were holding a vigil in front of the church ultimately stepped aside to allow the police to move when they arrived with a bulldozer.

After more than two hours of work, the cross was lowered by crane and handed over to the parishioners, who carried it back into the church. “Many of them were weeping inconsolably,” he said.

Patrick Zuo and Kiki Zhao contributed research.
 

solarz

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China has been constructing buildings at an astounding pace since the early 2000's (arguably even earlier). The flip side of this is that many building or zoning code violations get overlooked, either deliberately (bribes) or by slipping under the radar.

Whatever the case is, building or zoning codes exist for a reason. Whenever these buildings get targeted for takedown, there's always an economic reason behind it. Either neighboring residents have long complained about it and it finally got to the attention of the authorities (or finally wound its way through a long legal battle), or some development company is eyeing a neighboring piece of land for development and has a problem with the violations.

These kinds of things happen all over China, with all kinds of constructions. There would need to be a lot more evidence to support a case of religious persecution. Just because they're tearing down buildings, and those buildings happen to be churches, is not sufficient.

A related issue is that while people everywhere are quick to play the persecution card, this gets more traction in the US/Canada than in China.

For example, put the word "God" into the national anthem and the Atheists cry foul. Remove it, and the religious people are screaming instead. Both of those are accompanied by lengthy legal battles over human rights, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, etc. In China, the state would issue an order, and that order gets carried out, regardless of how many special interest groups protest it.

Therefore, people in the US/Canada are much more wary of doing something that might tread on the turf of one of those special interest groups, while there's no such reluctance in China.
 
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broadsword

Brigadier
The headline "China Moves Against 2 Churches in Campaign Against Christianity" tells you it is a spin against the Chinese communist. You cannot accept its face value, but start asking questions.
 
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Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
The headline "China Moves Against 2 Churches in Campaign Against Christianity" tells you it is a spin against the Chinese communist. You cannot accept its face value, but start asking questions.

I am certain that BD POPEYE posted this to alert those of us who are Christians, that the Chinese Communists, as you call them, are once again, actively and openly persecuting Christians..... its no secret, and to attempt to cover it up, or call it something else is simply.......dishonest.....its a very sad situation, when a country, which:( aspires to be a world leader, and to have the worlds acceptance, must resort to hurting those who very likely are among China's most faithful citizens
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Brat,

You might be right. I missed this part.

thank you t2, I wish you were right, Christians around the world face persecution as do many other faith groups, I have a very good friend in Kenya, a native who was a street kid, and she has done amazing things, and started an orphanage, she has about 60 children an is very faithful to send them to school and university, she just has such a burden for them. Another friend from here in the states was going to visit and help her with some upgrades, but because of the high level of violence is simply unable to travel to Kenya. I don't want you to think I'm whining, I'm not, I have been very blessed, but many Christians are facing persecution, as well as others, I am just so disappointed, I have such respect and hope for China on so many levels, but thank you so much for examining the article more closely. Actually the world just seems to be a more angry and unforgiving place, I am particularly sad for children, and women.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
I am certain that BD POPEYE posted this to alert those of us who are Christians, that the Chinese Communists, as you call them, are once again, actively and openly persecuting Christians..... its no secret, and to attempt to cover it up, or call it something else is simply.......dishonest.....its a very sad situation, when a country, which:( aspires to be a world leader, and to have the worlds acceptance, must resort to hurting those who very likely are among China's most faithful citizens

Define "worlds acceptance"? I didn't know there was ever such a thing in man kinds history? At what percentage does it count because we all know it's impossible to get 100% from anyone by anyone? Sorry but Christianity had a unfavorable past even in China that can never be trusted by non Christian Chinese. It's not the followers that many of us distrust but the organization and leaders intent behind it.
 

delft

Brigadier
I'm reminded when religious persecution is claimed of the troubles Muslims often have to build mosques and especially the minarets that generally accompany them in many Western countries including my own. Btw the resistance here seems to be decreasing.
 

broadsword

Brigadier
China has their own concern about churches. They can become like a trojan horse from which the West can subvert the government using religion. If that's the case, the clampdown is legit as far as the Chinese government is concerned. The work of the CIA in Tibet is not lost on them.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
I am certain that BD POPEYE posted this to alert those of us who are Christians, that the Chinese Communists, as you call them, are once again, actively and openly persecuting Christians..... its no secret, and to attempt to cover it up, or call it something else is simply.......dishonest.....its a very sad situation, when a country, which:( aspires to be a world leader, and to have the worlds acceptance, must resort to hurting those who very likely are among China's most faithful citizens

Psalm 37:12-29New King James Version (NKJV)

12 The wicked plots against the just,
And gnashes at him with his teeth.

13 The Lord laughs at him,
For He sees that his day is coming.

and

2 Timothy 3:12New King James Version (NKJV)

12 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.

======================================================================

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KIEV/DONETSK Ukraine (Reuters) - Intense fighting between Ukrainian troops and pro-Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine killed dozens of civilians, soldiers and rebels, as Kiev pressed on with an offensive on Tuesday including near the wreckage of Malaysian flight MH 17.

Officials said up to 17 people, including children, were killed in fighting on Monday evening in the town of Horlivka, a rebel stronghold north of Donetsk that saw fierce battles between the rival forces in the last few days.

In the city of Luhansk, officials said five civilians were killed when shelling hit a retirement home.

"The enemy is throwing everything it has into the battle to complete encirclement of the DNR," Igor Strelkov, a Muscovite rebel commander, told journalists in Donetsk on Monday evening, referring to the self-proclaimed "Donetsk People's Republic".

A rebel source in Donetsk said reinforcements including military equipment and fighters had arrived across the nearby border from Russia into Ukraine. Reuters was not able to confirm that independently.

Rebel leaders insist publicly that Moscow is not supplying them. Russia also denies Western accusations that it is supporting the rebellion with arms and troops.

A spokesman for Ukraine's Security Council, Andriy Lysenko, blamed Russia for shelling a Ukrainian border crossing point and military positions from across the border to help the rebels.

Western countries say Moscow has stepped up its support for the rebels since the downing of the airliner, which Washington says was almost certainly shot down accidentally by rebels using an advanced Russian-made surface-to-air missile.

Rebel leaders insist publicly that Moscow is not supplying them. Russia also denies Western accusations that it is supporting the rebellion with arms and troops.

A spokesman for Ukraine's Security Council, Andriy Lysenko, blamed Russia for shelling a Ukrainian border crossing point and military positions from across the border to help the rebels.

Western countries say Moscow has stepped up its support for the rebels since the downing of the airliner, which Washington says was almost certainly shot down accidentally by rebels using an advanced Russian-made surface-to-air missile.

The biggest confrontation between Russia and the West since the Cold War is expected to enter a new phase this week with the first broad-based sanctions designed to hurt sectors of Russia's economy as a whole rather than hit a few specific individuals, a result of new pressure since the airliner was brought down.

But meanwhile on the ground, fighting has only intensified, with Ukrainian government forces trying to press on with an offensive that saw them push rebels out of their bastion of Slaviansk at the start of the month.

Rebels have dug into Donetsk for a stand inside a city with a pre-war population of nearly 1 million. Fighting has also intensified in towns and villages near the border, where the government says it aims to assert control to block rebel reinforcements and arms shipments from Russia.

Leaders of the United States and major European powers agreed in a teleconference on Monday to impose sanctions on Russia's banking, technology and arms sectors over its backing for the separatists.

Lysenko said 10 Ukrainian soldiers were killed over the last 24 hours. Strelkov said his side had lost 30 fighters killed and wounded.

Plans to open a humanitarian corridor in Luhansk to allow residents to flee the fighting failed. The United Nations says more than 100,000 people have already fled Ukraine's tumultuous east.

Violence in the region also frustrated international experts' efforts to access the plane crash site for a third day. A Dutch police mission said it abandoned plans to travel there on Tuesday because of fighting along the route.

Fighting has impeded recovery of some of the remains from flight MH17 and undermined a probe that will be crucial as Kiev and the West trade recriminations with Moscow over the downing of the Boeing airliner. All 298 people on board were killed.

(Reporting by Natalia Zinets and Gabriela Baczynska in Kiev, Aleksandar Vasovic in Donetsk, Anthony Deutsch in Amsterdam; Editing by Peter Graff)
 
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