WW II Historical Thread, Discussion, Pics, Videos

[Jura The idiot]

The French army attacked the Netherlands by way of the Rhine valley ( In many other wars they came along the Meuse ). It needed bread for the soldiers and hay and straw for the horses in large quantities. Transport by water is by far the cheaper option, thus the use of the river routes. They also needed to subdue Dutch garrisons along the river that where there because of these strategic considerations. Looting to get food and fodder would delay the approach to the Netherlands fatally. So a logistical organisation was essential.

"The Dutch War (1672 - 1678) saw the French lay waste to parts of the Dutch Netherlands in 1672 - 1674." on p. 88 of by Mark Grimsley (Editor) , Clifford J. Rogers (Editor) "Civilians in the Path of War" University of Nebraska Press 2008

P.S. Sorry, Jeff (or whoever moderates this thread), this is not the WW2, but the logistics of the armies of the Sun King was completely different than that post suggests. Thank you.

 

[delft]

"The Dutch War (1672 - 1678) saw the French lay waste to parts of the Dutch Netherlands in 1672 - 1674." on p. 88 of by Mark Grimsley (Editor) , Clifford J. Rogers (Editor) "Civilians in the Path of War" University of Nebraska Press 2008

P.S. Sorry, Jeff (or whoever moderates this thread), this is not the WW2, but the logistics of the armies of the Sun King was completely different than that post suggests. Thank you.

Indeed OT.
Your quote is appropriate for the occupation of a large part, the poorer part, of the Dutch republic. But I was talking about the need of well organized logistics to achieve that occupation. A looting French army would not have been able to defeat the Dutch garrisons on the Rhine so would not have been able to occupy that part of the Netherlands. The approach was delayed long enough for the Dutch to inundate part of the country as a barrier protecting the richer part and the naval bases. The next year the Dutch fleet defeated the combined English-French fleet and the impecunious English king Charles II recognized the errors of his ways and sued for peace. In 1678 Louis XIV followed him.
Ten years later the Dutch Stadhouder invaded England, defeated his father-in-law and became King William III of England, which meant the end of the Dutch republic as a super power. The Dutch were defeated in peace, not in war.

 

[shen]

Indeed OT.

Ten years later the Dutch Stadhouder invaded England, defeated his father-in-law and became King William III of England, which meant the end of the Dutch republic as a super power. The Dutch were defeated in peace, not in war.

Is that how the Dutch see it? and a defeat in peace! So interesting how different countries see history differently. That episode, called Glorious Revolution in English. English always see it as a parliamentarian victory, that William of Orange was invited by the English people to get rid of a despotic and, the horror, Catholic king.
The glory of the republic lives on in De Zeven Provinciën-class a beautiful ship with a proud name.

 

[delft]

Is that how the Dutch see it? and a defeat in peace! So interesting how different countries see history differently. That episode, called Glorious Revolution in English. English always see it as a parliamentarian victory, that William of Orange was invited by the English people to get rid of a despotic and, the horror, Catholic king.
The glory of the republic lives on in De Zeven Provinciën-class a beautiful ship with a proud name.

It was not the Glorious Revolution itself that defeated the Dutch but England introducing Dutch techniques as in the founding of the Bank of England in 1694, which made the English state vastly more efficient. After that the much larger size of England let to the loss of the preeminent position of the Dutch republic. The Amsterdam city council recognized it already in 1689.
All the same that that revolution is called Glorious is due to a vast propaganda effort by the new regime. The BBC Radio 4 mentioned that in a program last week. When Czechoslovak members of parliament invited intervention by the Warsaw pact in 1968 they had as much right to do so as those English MP's in 1687. Of course I agree with those opposed to James II that he was a disaster but according to the law he had the right to do as he did.

 

[Jura The idiot]

Indeed OT.
...

delft, I misunderstood you, and I'm sorry. Indeed, p. 395 of Wars of the Age of Louis IX, 1650--1715 by Cathal J. Nolan says "French and Dutch armies took field ovens and supplies of grain with them on the march, pausing every several days to bake thousands of loaves of fresh bread". I'm leaving this topic here now. Over. Out.

 

[Jura The idiot]

The carrier wars in the Word war II were a mixture of very pitched battles, submarine sinkings, and sinkings by land based aircraft.

...

Five of the Essex class carriers re preserved around the United States as aircraft carrier museum ships.

Jeff, thanks for summarizing this, hey, if I was a billionaire, I'd visit all five of them!

 

[B.I.B.]

Exactly right, asif.

It is thought that follow on attacks would have taken out the oil storage and other facilites. Those second wave of strikes were intially planned as I undertsnad it, but Yamamoto ordered them to withdraw after he heard the damage that had been inflicted.

In the long run it probably would not have made much of a difference. But in the short run, it sure would have hampered and slowed initial operations being staged out of the Hawaiin Islands.

I'm a little confused here Jeff, the authors of the Wiki article on Pearl Harbour talk of the planned third wave of attacks that were abandoned. The Japanese suffered little casualties in the first wave, but damage to the attacking aircraft in the second wave had increased to a point where it was taken into account on whether they should go ahead with another attack.
I'm not sure on whether it's just idle speculation but It had been suggested that the abandoned attack could have caught the carriers returning to Pearl.

 

[Jeff Head]

I'm a little confused here Jeff, the authors of the Wiki article on Pearl Harbour talk of the planned third wave of attacks that were abandoned. The Japanese suffered little casualties in the first wave, but damage to the attacking aircraft in the second wave had increased to a point where it was taken into account on whether they should go ahead with another attack.
I'm not sure on whether it's just idle speculation but It had been suggested that the abandoned attack could have caught the carriers returning to Pearl.

On December 7th, when Pearl Harbor was attacked, USS Enterprise, CV-6, was about 200 miles west of Pearl Harbor. Her first notice that war had begun came from one of her own pilots, Ensign Manuel Gonzales, of Scouting Six, flying in to Ford Island Naval Air Station that Sunday morning. He was heard on the radio saying,

"Please don't shoot! Don't shoot! This is an American plane."

Moments later, he was again heard ordering his aircrewman Leonard J. Kozelek to bail out. Neither man was ever heard from again.

As the second wave was departing, Enterprise was ordered to seek out and attack the Japanese fleet.

But, faulty intelligence and bad guesses about where the Japanese had launched from led her to search the waters southwest of Hawaii, where she found only more American ships.

At dusk the following day, December 8th, 1941, Enterprise and her Task Force, low on fuel, came into Pearl Harbor. Working in the dark, in shadows cast by the still-burning Arizona, Enterprise refueled and reprovisioned. By 0600 December 9, 1941, she was underway, clearing the harbor channel and sailing back into the Pacific

So, given the history of her movements, it is very doubtful the Japanese would have found her. She had turned away to the southwest looking in the wrong place for the Japanese carriers and any Japanese planes going to Pearl Harbor as a 3rd wave would have missed her. She did not come into Pearl Harbor herself until dusk of the following day.

 

[chuck731]

I'm a little confused here Jeff, the authors of the Wiki article on Pearl Harbour talk of the planned third wave of attacks that were abandoned. The Japanese suffered little casualties in the first wave, but damage to the attacking aircraft in the second wave had increased to a point where it was taken into account on whether they should go ahead with another attack.
I'm not sure on whether it's just idle speculation but It had been suggested that the abandoned attack could have caught the carriers returning to Pearl.

I seriously doubt the American carriers, having now been warned of the Japanese attack, would come rushing back to port without making pretty sure the Japanese had left.

It would have been pretty clear after the first 2 raids that the Japanese carrier task force was much larger and stronger than the available American carriers can handle with even odds of success.

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

The Enterprise dispatched fighters and scouts, looking for Japanese ships. Some of those aircraft diverted after running low on fuel. To try and make a touch down in Pearl.
these aircraft were fired on by scared and pumped up sailors, Marines and soldiers who survived the first waves. Eventually Enterprise did return but only remained in port for a few hours.