East China Sea Air Defense ID Zone

[Blackstone]

On top of that it's the Holiday season just started and thousands of flights per day in and out of China to the US translates billions of dollars of cargo goods that FedEx, UPS, and others are not willing to risk losing business in China and in East Asia as well.

It'll be interesting to see what JAL and Nippon AL will do for transit to and from China.

 

[Equation]

It'll be interesting to see what JAL and Nippon AL will do for transit to and from China.

They can always stop by South Korea and go from there, passengers and goods can than go by either using Korean airlines and such.

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

Actually early on JAL said they would abide. Its not about the policy for the Airlines its about the revenues, that means passengers, and nothing scares passengers like a PLAAF fighter out your window loaded down with a air to air war load. The airlines had no choice. The Chinese Might not have actually shoot down a 747 loaded with passangers but then again it is not out of the realm of possibility. Lusitania, Flight 007 these are nightmares that would have haunted the board members at the top of these companies.

 

[Blitzo]

They have the means to intercept those planes. They havent, becuase they dont really need to, and because they dont want to escalate things further. There is no need to launch fighters just to identify foreign military planes. The reason why they are launching warplanes is mainly for internal comsumption, to give the impression that they are "defending" the ADIZ, coupled with ambiguous press wording that tries to mask their true actions.

Once again, they seem to avoid foreign military aircraft

At this stage I'd still like to wait if China will present and pictures or videos of any "interceptions" of US or Japanese aircraft, but even if they don't, that doesn't preclude a "non intercept" because like I said, is there a big difference between an intercept between aircraft at 100m away to 10km away?

the problem of not intercepting foreign military planes is that it discredits PLA and the chinese government, specially after they had warned of consequences if foreign military planes did not comply with the rules of ADIZ.

I think this is the crux of it.

You are arguing that China's original ADIZ statement was insinuating that the PLAAF would enact military defensive measures against all military aircraft or even most military aircraft which do not comply with the zone.
Indeed, that particular part is all that the media have been focusing on.

That has led to the assumption that China must react very vigorously to make itself seem credible and keep face.

However that is the western media's interpretation of China's ADIZ rules.

My interpretation, and I believe the Chinese government's interpretation of its new ADIZ, is that it A: gives China the pretext to challenge Japanese sovereignty over the disputed islands. B: gives China the pretext to do more longer range flights and "interceptions" as they might be.


Furthermore, I believe the wording of the original statement does lend credence to the idea that they did intercept the US and Japanese aircraft. China is very wordy. They call the liaoning a "scientific and training vessel". Is it much of a leap of faith to believe they'd call interceptions "identifications"?

The US and japan dont like china to install an ADIZ. Thats why they took advantage of the poorly setup of the ADIZ to heavily criticise it. IMO The announcement by the US government for the civilian Airlines to comply with the ADIZ rules is just another way to demonize the chinese ADIZ, presenting the possibility that china could harm the civilian planes.

Actually it's just business and logical sense because the US knows complying with the ADIZ is easiest for their airliners.

 

[cn_habs]

Actually early on JAL said they would abide. Its not about the policy for the Airlines its about the revenues, that means passengers, and nothing scares passengers like a PLAAF fighter out your window loaded down with a air to air war load. The airlines had no choice. The Chinese Might not have actually shoot down a 747 loaded with passangers but then again it is not out of the realm of possibility. Lusitania, Flight 007 these are nightmares that would have haunted the board members at the top of these companies.

Are you serious bra?

I'd simply send some escort for the Japanese airliners once they reach ADIZ unannounced as directed by Abe so their revenues and stocks can plummet like a rock. Nothing more is needed to bend the Japanese over.

 

[Blackstone]

They can always stop by South Korea and go from there, passengers and goods can than go by either using Korean airlines and such.

The problem for Japanese airlines is cost of doing business in China will be higher, while airlines of other airlines remain about the same. It's not clear what the long-term consequences will be, but they can't be helpful to Japanese airline industries.

 

[Blitzo]

Exactly, which passed the message I indicated. Does not matter if it was the "edge." It was the "Zone," that the PRC established requiring flight plans, transponder ifo, etc. Their reaction serves to show that they do not intend to "affect" flights flying according to international law...and who are not posing a threat to China.

Yes. And I don't think anyone expected the US to comply with China's ADIZ rules.
Frankly I think this entire ADIZ fiasco has been whipped to a frenzy.

China's ADIZ, if we look at its requirements, aren't actually that controversial, apart from the fact that it overlaps Japan's and covers a few disputed rocks.
No military aircraft of nations with opposing interests will ever properly respect the ADIZ rules of the other,

AEW aircraft are not sent up alone. Fightrers receive info from them and have their own sensors as well.

...... Weellll.....

Technically AEW aircraft can operate far away from opposing forces, and could probably monitor most of the ADIZ from China's internal airspace.
But if it was the AEW aircraft that "identified" the US and Japanese aircraft, why would the ministry of defence specifically say it was Chinese fighters that sortied to identify them?

Furthermore, the ministry of defence has a chronic need to make its actions seem unthreatening, to the extent that it can change the entire meaning of an action or an item.
For instance, the liaoning is officially still called a "scientific research and training vessel". Obviously in this case we can all see what it truly is. That veil won't hold.
For this case, where the MoD specifically said they did send aircraft up to "identify" foreign aircraft, would it be incomprehendable for the word "identify" to be a less vigorous synonym of "intercept"?

You don't need fighters up there to identify aircraft if you have a decent AEW system, and China has a few.

I do not believe a single of those aircraft was intercepted in the classic sense. I do believe the PRC identified them, just as they said, and passed the message that they are monitoring the ADIZ and have the capability of intercept if they deem it necessary.

I respectfully disagree, per my points above.

I suppose we'll see in future whether China actually did intercept them in the classic sense. I doubt the Chinese planes didn't take any photos of the US and Japanese planes, and vice versa.
Has the US and Japanese statements regarding the past day simply been "operating in airspace as normal"? I wonder if the US or japan would report the case even if Chinese fighters did intercept them in the classic case.

 

[Blitzo]

Afaik, no Chinese manned aircraft or Uav had actually overflown senkaku since beginning of the crisis, n or penetrated into what might be construed as territorial airspace around senkaku. Instead they have all skirted around the outer limits of senkaku territorial airspace.

A Chinese Maritime Surveillance Y-12 briefly entered the airspace a while ago. could've been last year, forgot.

 

[joshuatree]

The B52 flight it seems to me was made for two fold reasoning. 1) a message to Beijing that the US military would not respect the ADIZ. The B52 has a huge RCS and would have been visible from any Chinese air defenses. The B52 might as well have been a billboard with a picture of Obama making a face at the Chinese government its so blatant.
2) to test for reactions. To see just how long it would take the PLA to act if it did act.
the Chinese lack of reaction was likely considered as the identity of the craft in question were likely with out doubt.

I think there's more to both sides on use of B-52s. They were unarmed and not escorted so the message was we're crossing your ADIZ line and testing you but not full on provoking looking for a fight. Also, they came from Guam and not from any base in Japan which helps separate and lower the tone a little, it reassures Japan but doesn't convey to Japan that they should do something to further ratchet up the issue.

Lack of response from China with the B-52s doesn't outright mean they were caught off guard. At the end of the day, they aren't primarily doing this to go head on with the US but it's about responding to Japan's patrols and threat of shoot downs. So it could be a bit of courtesy to not completely push the US into a corner where it would need to ante up.

I don't think the goal ever was to make everyone comply to the rules, the goal was to establish a zone that would be known to everyone else where they will routinely patrol going forward. You could say the rules and all the media circus surrounding them are nothing more than a smokescreen.

 

[kroko]

japanese article denying that china scrambled jets, although i think that the japanese government misunderstood the news. The chinese never said that they had intercepted planes.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!