East China Sea Air Defense ID Zone

[Blitzo]

Re: First US incursion in new chinese ADIZ: no reaction from china

Actually, the US does not require any foreign plane, military or civilian, scheduled or otherwise, to do anything when they traverse American ADIZ, unless they actually enter American territorial air space.


So the US didn't require foreign planes to do this or else the US would do that. The US didn't posture eventhough it had full capacity to back up the posture. The US didn't bluff. It didn't even talk, over its ADIZ.

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I'm going to quote wikipedia here:
"The United States formally defines an ADIZ in the Code of Federal Regulations: 14 CFR Part 99. Furthermore 14 CFR Part 99.49 states "All airspace of the United States is designated as Defense Area", in which by definition the control of aircraft is required for reasons of national security. Therefore the ADIZ forms a transition zone in which aircraft come under positive identification and control by air traffic and defense authorities. 14 C.F.R. 99.11a states "No person may operate an aircraft into, within, or from a departure point within an ADIZ, unless the person files, activates, and closes a flight plan with the appropriate aeronautical facility, or is otherwise authorized by air traffic control", which appears to claim authority over all aircraft in the external U.S. ADIZ regardless of destination."

Files, activates, and closes a flght plan with the appropriate aeronautical facility or is otherwise authorized by ATC.

That's virtually the same requests the Chinese ADIZ makes.


Of course it is later said that:
"The United States does not recognize the right of a coastal nation to apply its ADIZ procedures to foreign aircraft not intending to enter national airspace nor does the United States apply its ADIZ procedures to foreign aircraft not intending to enter U.S. airspace. Accordingly, U.S. military aircraft not intending to enter national airspace should not identify themselves or otherwise comply with ADIZ procedures established by other nations, unless the United States has specifically agreed to do so."

That suggests that as long as your aircraft isn't intending to enter US territorial airspace, you don't need to follow US ADIZ instructions. This gives the US pretext for not following the ADIZ rules of other nations as long as the US military planes don't intend to enter the other nation's airspace.

But later it says:
"Meanwhile in actual practice the U.S. does attempt to apply its external ADIZ to military aircraft which pass through its extended ADIZ without intending to enter U.S. sovereign territory. A U.S. Air Force university dissertation states:
These regulations do not pertain to military aircraft, but to enter US airspace, without inducing the scrambling of fighter interceptors, these rules must be complied with and followed. The US does not claim sovereignty over these zones per se, but does closely monitor and request information of all objects entering the zone"


So clearly the US requires quite a lot, and more or less the same as China, for foreign aircraft that enter its ADIZ.


If you want, here is the FAA outline of the US ADIZ. Very detailed and very explicitly mentions the measures and rules the US places over its ADIZ. I think my point has been well buttressed with evidence.

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China did require foreign planes to do this or else China would do that. China did not back this up by doing that when foreign planes failed to do this. So it definitely seemed like an empty bluff.

Anytime when a major power bluffs to other major powers, and have its bluff called, it's a serious set back that effects its credibility and short term maneuvering room.

Yes.

But this was not a bluff, rather than a pretext for China to intercept aircraft in its ADIZ.

Let's look at this realistically, do you think the people who set up this ADIZ truly expected US and Japanese military aircraft to agree to file flight paths and activate transponders?

 

[SampanViking]

US incursion in new Chinese ADIZ: no reaction from China

I was interested by something that the US said about there ADIZ, which was that they did not require identification if the plane is not vectoring into US Territorial Airspace.

Maybe this is something that cut to the nub of the matter and the heart of the dispute. Maybe the PRC will say "that because we claim the Diaoyu, we view any flight entering their vicinity as vectoring into our Territorial Airspace and must give identification and follow our controllers instructions"

What the zone does in that sense is actually formalise the dispute in a precise. but also predictable way.

 

[nkvd]

US incursion in new Chinese ADIZ: no reaction from China

My view is sooner or later China will become militarily almost unchallengeable within its immediate vicinity so the question perhaps should be -is this the beginning of slowly but surely escalating measures to turn the SCS into A Chinese lake?Jeff thinks the IZ might be a blunder by China but me thinks geopolitics is VERY a long game and the dragon is giving notice.Very very soon there will be a new sheriff in town
This thread is liable to get people banned or suspended as straying into sensitive political waters is very easy to say the least.I want to keep my membership so i am out and i will just read as usual

 

[Jeff Head]

Re: World News Thread & Breaking News!!

am a little cloudy on your wording here.

Are you saying you would like China to dismantle the entire ADIZ or only the part over the disputed islands?

I believe that a clarification of what exactly the ADIZ means needs to be made. No need to dismantle the whole thing at all.

The US is trying to make it clear with their overflights...figuring it is best for them to initiate that clarification.

If the ADIZ is used to identify aircraft with aggressive postures towards the Mainland, and then warn them off, or intercept them if necessary...fine.

If the ADIZ is used specifically to target Japanese maritime/military aircraft patroling the islands, then that will not work.

I believe China will either clarify that sticking point right there...are the Japanese, now that the US has clarified it by precedent, will now clarify it specifically with respect to their own aircraft. They will fly over the islands, patrolling it as they normally do, without lodging a flight plan with the PRC or providing transponder data.

If that passes without incident, then the new "status qou" will be established and the PRC will have its ADIZ with the understanding it is not targeted at Japanese Self Defense forces over those islands conducting normal patrols.

 

[Cyclist]

Re: First US incursion in new chinese ADIZ: no reaction from china

I think with US move, now China knows that USA will back Japan if conflict erupted regarding Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands. By sending bomber and on the article it says:

"This was a "long-planned training exercise," and the U.S. did not inform the Chinese of their flight plan, Warren said.

Did China know that USA planned the exercise, and therefore setup ADIZ before the planned exercise?
If that is the case, I think China gains valuable insight right now. China get to know what USA will do (before that USA only gave vague respond whether will be involved or not).

China strategists will now involve USA action if they try to take Diaoyu/Senkaku islands by force.

Let us refresh back. China wants to get peaceful resolution regarding the Islands. China says there is a dispute, but Japan says no dispute. Therefore Japan already close the path to peaceful resolution. So what path can China take now beside enforce it using power? Remember this island dispute is not a recent problem, it already mentioned during the 1970s when China-Japan normalize their relations.

 

[chuck731]

Re: First US incursion in new chinese ADIZ: no reaction from china

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I'm going to quote wikipedia here:
"The United States formally defines an ADIZ in the Code of Federal Regulations: 14 CFR Part 99. Furthermore 14 CFR Part 99.49 states "All airspace of the United States is designated as Defense Area", in which by definition the control of aircraft is required for reasons of national security. Therefore the ADIZ forms a transition zone in which aircraft come under positive identification and control by air traffic and defense authorities. 14 C.F.R. 99.11a states "No person may operate an aircraft into, within, or from a departure point within an ADIZ, unless the person files, activates, and closes a flight plan with the appropriate aeronautical facility, or is otherwise authorized by air traffic control", which appears to claim authority over all aircraft in the external U.S. ADIZ regardless of destination."

Files, activates, and closes a flght plan with the appropriate aeronautical facility or is otherwise authorized by ATC.

That's virtually the same requests the Chinese ADIZ makes.

No, the difference is American requirements cover only the parts of American ADIZ that is actually also America's universally recognized territorial airspace. China attempts to impose those requirements on parts of its self declared ADIZ that actually fall far outside of China's territorial airspace by anybody's definition of chinese territorial airspace, even China's own.

 

[Blitzo]

Re: First US incursion in new chinese ADIZ: no reaction from china

The rub is this. If the PRC uses the ADIZ to identify aircraft closing on its coast line in an aggressive posture, to warn those aircraft off, or to intercept them as the come into, or clearly intend to volate Chinese air space over the mainland....great. But, if they try and set up the AWACS and fighter patrols to do the same to the Japanese aircraft flying their normal patrols over those islands...then there will be trouble.

This would be a clear escalation of the status quo, and the US has now contested it with its own military aircraft.

I've underlined and bolded two parts of your statement which are worth looking into.

Now, the US ADIZ technically says that only foreign aircraft intending to enter US airspace must follow ADIZ rules in other words, only such aircraft are to be intercepted. In practice this isn't true, as we all know. No Russian bears ever intend to enter US airspace.

So in this way, China can still intercept aircraft at the full extent of its ADIZ regardless of its immediate vector. This is in line with international practice, including America's.

The rub as you say, comes down to the disputed islands. What will happen if Chinese J-10s and J-11s meet a JASDF P-3 or F-15J?

Honestly, I don't think anything will happen. They're not going to start shooting at each other. China will exert its ADIZ right to intercept the foreign aircraft and Japan will also exert that right as well. Basically both sides will intercept the other, which in practice will probably just mean shadowing each other.

Will this challenge the status quo? Absolutely. If we define the status quo as "Japan having unilateral and undisputed right to administer the air and sea around the island" then yes China is challenging the status quo. However, the fact is the right to administer and thus control the islands were always under dispute. China is now just following its words with actions after three years since Japan escalated its claimed sovereignty over the islands.


In many ways China's act to administer the air over the islands has been a long time coming. It's position over the islands have remained consistent. It is only now when Japan has decided to exert greater claims to the island by arresting Chinese fishermen and the government purchasing the islands, that China will start to also exert its claim.

 

[Jeff Head]

Re: US incursion in new Chinese ADIZ: no reaction from China

Jeff thinks the IZ might be a blunder by China.

Actually, no, not really. If the PRC uses their new ADIZ as a buffer zone for the mainland to identify agressive postures and warn them off or intercept them...there is nothing in that that other nations would stand against. This is how ADIZs are typically used.

However, if it is meant to be a brinkmanships game aimed specifically at preventing Japan from conducting its maritime patrols of those Islands it is administering, in the ongoing dispute, and thus change the status quo...then yes. I think it is a mistake. It will send a message and cause not only Japan (and by extension the US) to resist it strongly, but it will also serve as a rallying point for South Korea, Vietnam, the Philippines, etc. to take the same message and work together to resist it.

I hope it does not go that way. I hope it is the former.

 

[chuck731]

Re: World News Thread & Breaking News!!

I believe that a clarification of what exactly the ADIZ means needs to be made. No need to dismantle the whole thing at all.

The US is trying to make it clear with their overflights...figuring it is best for them to initiate that clarification.

If the ADIZ is used to identify aircraft with aggressive postures towards the Mainland, and then warn them off, or intercept them if necessary...fine.

If the ADIZ is used specifically to target Japanese maritime/military aircraft patroling the islands, then that will not work.

I believe China will either clarify that sticking point right there...are the Japanese, now that the US has clarified it by precedent, will now clarify it specifically with respect to their own aircraft. They will fly over the islands, patrolling it as they normally do, without lodging a flight plan with the PRC or providing transponder data.

If that passes without incident, then the new "status qou" will be established and the PRC will have its ADIZ with the understanding it is not targeted at Japanese Self Defense forces over those islands conducting normal patrols.

Right now, any Chinese clarification of ADIZ would be seen as an attempt to save face. I would think Abe would like to embarass the Chinese further. But I would think the US would want to allow China to save face.

US does not want lasting damage in relationship between US and China beyond what is necessary to protect current US position in the pacific. Abe would like his tough stand against China to save his prime ministership from his failure to implement any significant structural reforms he promised. For Abe, the more he seem to "win", the less he has to deliver on structure reforms without losing his seat. So far he has delivered nothing and no one seem to think he could deliver anything on this front.

 

[Blitzo]

Re: First US incursion in new chinese ADIZ: no reaction from china

No, the difference is American requirements cover only the parts of American ADIZ that is actually also America's universally recognized territorial airspace. China attempts to impose those requirements on parts of its self declared ADIZ that actually fall far outside of China's territorial airspace by anybody's definition of chinese territorial airspace, even China's own.

So you're saying America's territorial airspace equals its ADIZ??

Do you mean this:

Or perhaps this:

You know of course, if I prove to you that US ADIZ requirements is as severe or more severe than China's, then your entire argument falls apart, seeing as your argument hinges on the idea that China's ADIZ is unreasonable and that a couple of B-52s entering the ADIZ means China has lost face.

Of course Russian Tu-95s constantly enter America's Alaskan ADIZ which has virtually identical rules as China's ADIZ, so I suppose you would agree that America is constantly losing face every time a bear enters its ADIZ?