Chinese Engine Development

[Inst]

You know my enmity with Engineer as well as anyone else, but I think in this case you can't stand to reason that the Chinese are already resorting to Russian engines. We've considered J-20 with Salyut engines as a possibility the entire time, but while I insist that the Chinese engine program is not at full maturity, and is probably not yet equal to that of the Russian aviation engine industry, it doesn't mean anything definite.

The Chinese could simply be shopping for back-up plans or stop-gap solutions; we know for a fact that the J-20s currently operate on custom-modified Al-31s because the WS-15 were not ready at launch, and for all we know the Chinese could be shopping for Al-41s or 117S as prototyping / limited deployment engines, or to finalize back-up plans in the event that the WS-15 project hits more snags.

There's a lot more possibilities than the WS-15 has already been abandoned in an aircraft expected to hit IOC around the 2018 timeframe.

 

[MiG-29]

xu is also a bigwig, vice chairman of central military commission is equivalent to masalov's position in russia. (xi jinping is chairman of the cmc) of course the russians would receive him with people of similar rank and status, anything else would be a diplomatic snub. this does not mean china wants russian engines for the j-20.




3. pride is the third factor. it is widely known that china has lagged behind on turbofan technology, the induction of the j-20 with russian engines would not only look bad to people in china, but also encourage the west to continue to disregard the capabilities of chinese military industry.


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Read well what i said, my point was is Masalov highlighted the importance of cooperation in building of Aeroengines and Xu replied they want to continue cooperating with Russia.

There was no report of any deal struck.

By the words of Masalov it seems they are interested in cooperation perhaps design or perhaps manufacture.
Salut page is ambiguous simply because politicians will discuss things in secret and only when things are concrete things come out specially companies like Salut or Sukhoi Knaapo will only publish sales once it is 100% sure.

Therefore people speculate and people will opine in a place like this.

That is fine.

However globalization means cooperation due to price increases and need for Markets.

The Chinese website just claimed they went for engines, the website might be correct or wrong, i have no idea since Salut only will publish very vague information about what did the Russians and Chinese really talked since they will only report a contract once it has been confirmed.

To say they just talked about buying Al-31FNs is as speculative as saying the will buy Al-31-M1 or M2s.

Why? because you are just choosing what engine you want according what you believe.

But the only thing i can tell you is Salut wants Al-31M2 to be sold

see



Vladislav Masalov, Director General of Salut, said that the full-scale deliveries of upgraded engines could be started as early as 2013. “The AL-31F M2 engine can be a not so expensive solution for re-engining of Su-27, Su-30 and Su-34 fleet now operated by the Russian military and is likewise deliverable to foreign customers,” noted Director General. The technical specifications and requirements of Su-27SM and Su-34 aircraft call for the engines with increased thrust and improved fuel consumption with the AL-31F M2 fulfilling these requisites. The installation can be performed without any rework of the aircraft and take place in field conditions.

see this is from salut

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So as you can see in 2013 Masalov recieves Xu and talk about cooperation but Masalov wants the Al-31-M2 for export who is to say Russia and China are not in talks about it or Masalov did not offer the engine to Xu?

 

[Inst]

The M2s would be pretty great because if you install them on a J-10B, you'd get an aircraft with 1.25 t/w and the TVC would be able to compensate against any aerodynamic advantages a Rafale would have.

A J-10B or J-10C operating a M2 would outclass any Indian Rafales in the region, not only in radar aperture, but also in raw aerodynamics. However, I believe the Chinese don't seem to be interested in buying; they were shown TVC versions of the Al-31 systems and they failed to pick it up.

 

[Schumacher]

The M2s would be pretty great because if you install them on a J-10B, you'd get an aircraft with 1.25 t/w and the TVC would be able to compensate against any aerodynamic advantages a Rafale would have.

A J-10B or J-10C operating a M2 would outclass any Indian Rafales in the region, not only in radar aperture, but also in raw aerodynamics. However, I believe the Chinese don't seem to be interested in buying; they were shown TVC versions of the Al-31 systems and they failed to pick it up.

Russian engines, especially newer ones, rarely disappoint when it comes to performance parameters on paper.
The problem is delivering those marketing promises in reality, on schedule, within budgeted costs and ensuring reliability.

 

[Inst]

The Russian TVC technology is semi-mature; it's been used on MKI for quite some time. I think it would be a great way for the Chinese to get their hands on and to experiment with TVC technology if the Russians are willing to sell the product.

The T/W doesn't matter that much, on the other hand. It should be somewhere in the range of its stated maximum; and if it doesn't meet expectations, well, there's the WS-10G project in the pipeline. Whatever happens with Russian engines; they're ultimately just placeholders for indigenous technology.

 

[MiG-29]

The Russian TVC technology is semi-mature; it's been used on MKI for quite some time. I think it would be a great way for the Chinese to get their hands on and to experiment with TVC technology if the Russians are willing to sell the product.

The T/W doesn't matter that much, on the other hand. It should be somewhere in the range of its stated maximum; and if it doesn't meet expectations, well, there's the WS-10G project in the pipeline. Whatever happens with Russian engines; they're ultimately just placeholders for indigenous technology.

The Russians today have the technology mature, just to cite an example the number of Al-31s with TVC nozzle on Su-27s and derivatives goes beyond 400 engines counting the Su-30 production, Su-37, MiG-29OVT, PAKFA　and Su-35 built aircraft.
Today there are 170 Su-30MKI operational just to cite a number.

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Russia is so confident now on the technology that PAKFA has flown at MAKS using TVC and Russia has now around 30 aircraft operational with TVC on Su-35BMs and SU-30SMs

Russia still is not yet as advanced only in supercruise compared to the Americans and they will only catch up around 2016 or 2017 once the first T-50s fly with Type 30 engines.

If China wants to cooperate in an engine for fighters perhaps in a 117 type or Al-31F-M2 could be a start if the Russians and Chinese do agree in IP issues.

Will J-20 use WS-15 on time who knows perhaps it will, but if Xu wants China to cooperate with Salut the main issue will be IP matters and what technologies Russia will share and viceversa and the price Russia will ask, since that is one of the main issues accordding to Sergey Chemezov, director general of Russian Technologies State Corporation (ROSTEC) China is not getting 117S.

 

[Zahid]

I am quoting from an article originating from JDW, posted at ***********. I have cross posted it in the JF-17 / FC-1 thread. It has an interesting bit about Chinese Engine technology, particularly in reference to WS-13. Chinese friends would probably not like it. I am just putting it here to get more info. I have no wish to take part in the heated debates on this thread. My interest is only in WS-13 as it may relate to JF-17
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One major JF-17 subsystem that has long been the subject of a possible replacement is the Russian-made Klimov/Sarkisov RD-93 jet engine: a modified version of Mikoyan's MiG-29 RD-33 power plant. Numerous stories over the years have discussed replacing this engine with the WS-13 engine produced by the Liyang Aeroengine Corporation (LYAC) in Guizhou, Guiyang Province.

However, there are again reports that technology bottlenecks continue to dog this and other Chinese military engine designs, "such as engine blades warping during high-g manoeuvres and sometimes complete failures of the compressor section", according to a Western intelligence officer posted in Beijing. "Additionally, the lack of fluency with such aviation materials technologies as powder metallurgy are another shortcoming that holds back Chinese progress in propulsion development," he said.

It is reported recently that more than USD700 million was to be invested into LYAC, part of which is presumably to be used to enhance the technological proficiency of the enterprise.

http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/air...ghter-aircraft-thread-59-5634.html#post255745

 

[TyroneG]

However, there are again reports that technology bottlenecks continue to dog this and other Chinese military engine designs, "such as engine blades warping during high-g manoeuvres and sometimes complete failures of the compressor section", according to a Western intelligence officer posted in Beijing. "Additionally, the lack of fluency with such aviation materials technologies as powder metallurgy are another shortcoming that holds back Chinese progress in propulsion development," he said.

It is reported recently that more than USD700 million was to be invested into LYAC, part of which is presumably to be used to enhance the technological proficiency of the enterprise.

http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/air...ghter-aircraft-thread-59-5634.html#post255745

This sounds like its related to materials, Well if WS10A issue is solved then I don't see how this still dogging WS13 unless WS10A hasn't really solved.

 

[thunderchief]

So you agree that the Russians were not at Pakistan's plant to buy JF-17. The Russian's visit perfectly illustrates a visit does not automatically correlate with an interest to buy. Likewise, the Chinese visit is merely a tourist activity which does not translates to an interest. Any Chinese interest in pursuing a new project is merely some people's fantasy.

I didn't say Russians went there to buy something , I said they went there to negotiate business deal . What deal could that be ? Pakistan wants more JF-17 . For that they need engines . Who could supply those engines ? Russia . Note : I'm not saying they finalized the deal .

Same logic could be applied to Chinese visit to Salyut . They went there to discuss possible business deal . Again , I'm not saying deal was finalized . What deal could that be ? Use your brain .

You could believe in high-level tourist visits if you want , but it doesn't work that way in real world .

 

[latenlazy]

This sounds like its related to materials, Well if WS10A issue is solved then I don't see how this still dogging WS13 unless WS10A hasn't really solved.

Solving problems with one engine doesn't equate to solving problems in another engine. That said, the specific quote sounds like something from the Erickson article on Chinese engines a while back, which was rather outdated information.