Chinese Engine Development

[MiG-29]

...Except China has been going to their product providers to learn manufacturing processes for the last 40 years now *facepalm*.

and what do you think the russian teach for free?
specially the current Russian philosophy is money money money, you want to learn you have to pay, and to learn you have to ask Putin and his defense minister use logic do not use simple statements

 

[latenlazy]

and what do you think the russian teach for free?
specially the current Russian philosophy is money money money, you want to learn you have to pay, and to learn you have to ask Putin and his defense minister use logic do not use simple statements

No, but that doesn't mean China's going to be buying engines. My point is that there are any number of potential transactions that a meeting could entail.

 

[thunderchief]

The Russian delegation was not in JF-17 plant to look at Russian engines. The delegation was there to look at the JF-17. Here we see Lieutenant General Viktor Nikolayevich Bondarev Commander-in-Chief sitting in JF-17's cockpit. Guess where the Russian engine is installed? The engine is not inside the cockpit, that's for sure.

As shown by my example, military delegation visiting a manufacturing plant has no correlation with future military sales.

Well , do you really think Bondarev and other Russians came just to play around with JF-17 ?

High level delegation visit (military or civilian ) always has something to do with something big , usually with large amounts of money involved . I'm 100% certain Russians & Pakistanis were discussing problem of supplying engines to JF-17 , as one of the topics . That doesn't mean there was a concrete agreement , but you could bet your <censored> that they didn't get all the way to the Pakistan just to fool around in cockpit of JF-17

Likewise , I'm certain that Chinese visit to Salut was not accidental or courtesy call . Were they discussing engine sale , cooproduction , transfer of technology is matter of discussion , but certainly it had to do with something that Salut does .

 

[tphuang]

remember, China has a lot of business with Salyut. You could visit there for any number of reasons. PLAAF is interested in bujying more AL-31FN engine and we also know they put a lot of money in for the 99M project. Over the past few years, each new batch of AL-31FN is probably an upgrade over the previous batch. What standard the latest batch of AL-31FN is, only the parties that signed know. Chinese side is saying the latest FN is at the same level as 99M. There is also the huge MRO plant they have for AL-31 in Chengdu.

It seems like based on the high level of interest and investment in Salyut, it's natural for General Xu to visit.

 

[AeroEngineer]

I will just put it simple, no military visit is without interest by the visitor, first China has signed with Russia agreements to cooperate in the realm of the military area.

I terms of diplomacy both sides communicate a schedule to follow, specially for a high military ranking official visiting a highly out of access facility for foreigners.

What you doing is simply in denial of the political realities of both nations, since cooperation in the realm of aero-engines is mutually beneficial for China and Russia.

Also the Chinese official goes with his entourage of technicians and he is in charge of the delegation and Xu Qiliang, is the vice chairman of the Central Military Commission of the Communist Party of China and he was was accompanied by Sergey Shoigu, Russia’s defense minister


see what the Salut page says
During the red carpet reception, Vladislav Masalov, Director General of Salut, emphasized in his speech the importance of cooperation with the PRC in aeroengine-building projects.

Colonel-General Xu Qiliang in his turn expressed the willingness to use best efforts toward ensuring that this cooperation be continued on a long-term and mutually beneficial basis.





So basicly the visit has a purpose is not a tourist destination.

It is the AL-31FM1. China funded Salut for the AL-31FM1 program and J-10B is currently using the AL-31FM1, an improvement over the previous AL-31FN. The future coperation is about the AL-31FM2, it has nothing to do with WS-15.

Also, the report did not mention J-20 at all therefore, you Russians can not use this as something to releate to the J-20.

It is all about the J-10, as we know J-10A uses AL-31FN and J-10B might use AL-31FM1 !!

Also, remember, China was invited by Russia for the visit !! Chinese are NOT sent to visit but INVITED !

 

[MiG-29]

remember, China has a lot of business with Salyut. You could visit there for any number of reasons. PLAAF is interested in bujying more AL-31FN engine and we also know they put a lot of money in for the 99M project. Over the past few years, each new batch of AL-31FN is probably an upgrade over the previous batch. What standard the latest batch of AL-31FN is, only the parties that signed know. Chinese side is saying the latest FN is at the same level as 99M. There is also the huge MRO plant they have for AL-31 in Chengdu.

It seems like based on the high level of interest and investment in Salyut, it's natural for General Xu to visit.

See that Masalov is the same guy who made the speech for Xu and he claims Salut has delivered around 1000 Al-31 deliveries to China including engines for J-11s/Su-27
"Masalov further said that the grand total of Salut-made AL-31 series engines in China “is nearing one thousand units.” To serve them, Salut has established partnerships with Limin Corp. and Tyan Li company in Chengdu on deliveries and manufacturing of spare parts for both the AL-31F and the AL-31FN. Russia has also agreed to provide all necessary maintenance and repair documentation to the Chinese partners. Salut faces many issues pertaining to ramping up production to fill these big Chinese orders, Masalov said. This year the company must increase its production output by 30 to 40 percent to fulfill the Chinese contracts. “Certainly there is some pressure on us, with bottlenecks being metal and vendor items,” Masalov said.

Meanwhile, Salut is negotiating the sale of another 40 AL-31FM1 engines to the Russian Air Force for the Su-27SM upgrade. Twelve have already been ordered. Talks to supply AL-31FM2 versions for the Su-34 continue, Masalov said.

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See the Al-31F for Su-27s is listed as a Salut`s product in the products list

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See also the Al-31F-M1 is in the list plus read this

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FSUE “Gas-Turbine Engineering RPC “Salut” made the first public display of the enhanced AL-31F M2 engine at the venue of “Machine-Building Technologies – 2012” International Meeting.

The AL-31F M2, which is the second phase updrade of the basic engine, features a considerably higher thrust at all power settings, including up to 14 300 kgf at the special power setting. The engine's assigned life has also been significantly increased up to 3 000 hours.

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As you can see Salut has a great number of engines to offer, plus Russia takes their engines to Zhuhai, there the Chinese officials go to see the latest Russian products and can buy them and sign contracts.

In the course of the International Airshow China-2012 talks on mutually beneficial cooperation between VSUE GTERPC Salut and representatives of Chinese Air Force, foreign trade companies and plants repairing aircraft engines of type АL-31F have been held.

As a result VSUE GTERPC Salut concluded a contract for supply of spare parts for aircraft engine repair in 2013 with Chinese foreign trade company Tianli.

During the show mockups of AL-31FN-М1afterburning turbofan vectored-thrust engine, AI-222-25 engine for trainer aircraft Yak-130, small-scale engine MD-120 and models of low pressure compressor 1-st stage for АI-222-25 engine were exhibited.

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Xu went there to obviously not in a tourist visit, but to talk about a deal, the Chinese website said to buy engines for J-20

 

[Engineer]

Well , do you really think Bondarev and other Russians came just to play around with JF-17 ?

High level delegation visit (military or civilian ) always has something to do with something big , usually with large amounts of money involved . I'm 100% certain Russians & Pakistanis were discussing problem of supplying engines to JF-17 , as one of the topics . That doesn't mean there was a concrete agreement , but you could bet your <censored> that they didn't get all the way to the Pakistan just to fool around in cockpit of JF-17

Likewise , I'm certain that Chinese visit to Salut was not accidental or courtesy call . Were they discussing engine sale , cooproduction , transfer of technology is matter of discussion , but certainly it had to do with something that Salut does .

So, did Russian buy any JF-17 as a result of the visit? No. Likewise Chinese visit does not automatically translates to an interest to buy something. So, certain individuals are making a big thing out of nothing from a simple tourist visit.

 

[tphuang]

See that Masalov is the same guy who made the speech for Xu and he claims Salut has delivered around 1000 Al-31 deliveries to China including engines for J-11s/Su-27
"Masalov further said that the grand total of Salut-made AL-31 series engines in China “is nearing one thousand units.” To serve them, Salut has established partnerships with Limin Corp. and Tyan Li company in Chengdu on deliveries and manufacturing of spare parts for both the AL-31F and the AL-31FN. Russia has also agreed to provide all necessary maintenance and repair documentation to the Chinese partners. Salut faces many issues pertaining to ramping up production to fill these big Chinese orders, Masalov said. This year the company must increase its production output by 30 to 40 percent to fulfill the Chinese contracts. “Certainly there is some pressure on us, with bottlenecks being metal and vendor items,” Masalov said.

Meanwhile, Salut is negotiating the sale of another 40 AL-31FM1 engines to the Russian Air Force for the Su-27SM upgrade. Twelve have already been ordered. Talks to supply AL-31FM2 versions for the Su-34 continue, Masalov said.

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See the Al-31F for Su-27s is listed as a Salut`s product in the products list

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

See also the Al-31F-M1 is in the list plus read this

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FSUE “Gas-Turbine Engineering RPC “Salut” made the first public display of the enhanced AL-31F M2 engine at the venue of “Machine-Building Technologies – 2012” International Meeting.

The AL-31F M2, which is the second phase updrade of the basic engine, features a considerably higher thrust at all power settings, including up to 14 300 kgf at the special power setting. The engine's assigned life has also been significantly increased up to 3 000 hours.

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As you can see Salut has a great number of engines to offer, plus Russia takes their engines to Zhuhai, there the Chinese officials go to see the latest Russian products and can buy them and sign contracts.

In the course of the International Airshow China-2012 talks on mutually beneficial cooperation between VSUE GTERPC Salut and representatives of Chinese Air Force, foreign trade companies and plants repairing aircraft engines of type АL-31F have been held.

As a result VSUE GTERPC Salut concluded a contract for supply of spare parts for aircraft engine repair in 2013 with Chinese foreign trade company Tianli.

During the show mockups of AL-31FN-М1afterburning turbofan vectored-thrust engine, AI-222-25 engine for trainer aircraft Yak-130, small-scale engine MD-120 and models of low pressure compressor 1-st stage for АI-222-25 engine were exhibited.

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Xu went there to obviously not in a tourist visit, but to talk about a deal, the Chinese website said to buy engines for J-20

Please point out the Chinese website. Consdering that you have no experience in dealing with Chinese websites, I don't think you can actually exercise good judgement on which is valid and which is not.

Why would they buy engines for an aircraft that's not close to production yet? They don't need to make special visits to Salyut to purchase 2 or 4 99M engines for building a couple of prototypes.

It's pretty well know that China put fundings into 99M project and that J-10B is going to use that at least in the beginning.

And it's also pretty common after you sign contract for something, you go there to see the production of the thing you already purchased.

If they are really negotiating, they will do that later in a separate place with the relevant people. When you go to a plant, you are no there to negotiate.

Kanwa is a not a great source, but you can pretty much see how long the negotiation process is between China and Russia on every single deal that they sign from reading Kanwa articles.

 

[Engineer]

You can say whatever it makes you feel secure about the cooperation, but i am confident you do not go to your provider of Al-31s just to learn management of of programs, if your Provider of Al-31s is saying cooperation in aeroengine-building projects and you are buying their engines and recieved their maintainance manuals for Al-31 and the engines for L-15 you buy them from Ukraine and Salut is a provider via Motorsich is hardly a chance you are looking for the AI-222-25 and AI-222-28 engines.

Since the Current Russian engine for Il-76s is PS-90A2 of much higher yield thrust than the D-436T1/TP/148 engine that is intended for short and medium-haul airliners such as Tu-334, Be-200, An-148 and other but not for Il-76

It is unlikely the Chinese went Shopping for these engines.

The Chinese website is more logical than you since the main product sold is Al-31M1 and you already have the manuals for Al-31F and Al-31FN.

You claim and claim and claim, but official reports do not confirm what you are claiming at all. Without concrete evidences such as signed contracts or official announcements, you are just making empty statements.

Why you will send so many people and bother to bring the Russian minister of defense?

Simple. Multiple officials are sent so that multiple subjects can be discussed simultaneously among officials with different expertise. It will be costly, inefficient, and not to mention silly to repeatedly fly one official over, wait for him to get back, before sending another. Use some common sense instead of simple statements.

The Russian minister of defense being there means military discussions took place. In fact, a minister of defense is in charge of defense and not export. This means he is not there to oversee signing of contracts. His presence is further indication that Chinese was not there to make engine purchases.

 

[Schumacher]

So Russian fans have lost so much pride they're reduced to going gaga over some photo ops ? lol
At least wait until a deal is signed or announced. Or Russian fanboys are so desperate for any sign these days to disprove they've fallen behind China in military tech ?
So now we know when politicians make photo ops visits to an orphanage they really want to adopt children & when PLA VIPs visit a USN carrier, they're going to buy one ? lol