Chinese Trainer Aircraft (JL-8, JL-9, JL-10 (L-15), etc.)

[jackliu]

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

A trainer aircraft is a trainer.. you have props and you have Jets..different levels.but still. A trainer is a trainer.

That'll be like saying an air craft is an air craft, therefore 747 and F-16 are all air crafts... different air craft, but still an air craft is an air craft.

Clearly JL-15 is very different from T-45C. There are things that unique to both trainers, but one of them can do a lot more than the other cannot.

Therefore they are not in the same class.

From that chart it looks to me that US uses T-45C to a certain extend, then it uses the actual air craft for training purposes. For China and L-15, it is very possible to use that to train vast majority of the pilot's skill before step in the actual aircraft itself. Both of them have its own advantages, for US's method, the pilots get familiar with the air craft faster, but it have to dedicate a entire wing for that purposes. It can also be converted into combat status when needed.

For China, it is possible to train all pilots using one jet, this reduces cost and logistics and the trainer itself can be converted into light attack craft itself. But they wont' be as familiar with the actual jet as much as US students, but with proper drill this should not be a problem.

 

[adeptitus]

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

Price wise, Korean T-50 is out, it costs double the price as L-15. And Aermacchi M-346 Master being made from Yak-130 and produced in Italy won't be cheap either. That only left Yak-130 as the true competitor as L-15, as far as I can see they both have almost identical price. But question is how different are the performances between the two.

The Koreans were pressed to lower the price on T-50's for Indonesia:

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"Under the envisaged new deal, if approved, the value of the original $400 million contract to sell 16 T-50s to Indonesia could be lowered to less than $280 million."

Also, considering that these are the armed T-50 LIFT variant, it's more likely that they are T/A-50. If the article's estimate is correct at $280 million, it'd mean the actual purchase value is $11.25 million per aircraft.

 

[bd popeye]

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

That'll be like saying an air craft is an air craft, therefore 747 and F-16 are all air crafts... different air craft, but still an air craft is an air craft.

Do not put words in my mouth. thank you. I think perhaps you may misunderstand.

I posted.

A trainer aircraft is a trainer.. you have props and you have Jets..different levels. but still. A trainer is a trainer.

In the military pilot training starts off at the lowest level. The training is more intensified as a pilot graduates from one type aircraft to another until he/she reaches the aircraft they will eventually fly. It's that simple.

You fellows can argue about which aircraft is the best and who has the best training. the only thing that counts is that when the training is over is that the pilot is properly trained an ready to assume his/her position as a combat ready pilot.

 

[Lion]

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

The Koreans were pressed to lower the price on T-50's for Indonesia:

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"Under the envisaged new deal, if approved, the value of the original $400 million contract to sell 16 T-50s to Indonesia could be lowered to less than $280 million."

Also, considering that these are the armed T-50 LIFT variant, it's more likely that they are T/A-50. If the article's estimate is correct at $280 million, it'd mean the actual purchase value is $11.25 million per aircraft.

I doubt the Korean will lower the price but the Indonesia might threaten to use switch over to L-15 to make Korea lower it. I hope the threatening will turn into a real deal. Haha...

 

[Lion]

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

So this is the second K-8 crash? Wonder it is the quality problem of the aircraft or the training/maintenance problem of the Venezuela air-force?

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3 days before the Venzuela K-8 crashed. 2 Venezuela Bronco collide in mid-air and killed a pilot. And the fact, the helo send to the crashed site of K-8 also crashed.

So what do you think of Venezuela Air Force condition? I think even you give them a Euro Typhoon. If badly maintenace, same thing will happen....

 

[jackliu]

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

Do not put words in my mouth. thank you. I think perhaps you may misunderstand.

I posted.



In the military pilot training starts off at the lowest level. The training is more intensified as a pilot graduates from one type aircraft to another until he/she reaches the aircraft they will eventually fly. It's that simple.

You fellows can argue about which aircraft is the best and who has the best training. the only thing that counts is that when the training is over is that the pilot is properly trained an ready to assume his/her position as a combat ready pilot.

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Look what I found, US is actually trying finding trainer to replace their older jets, and the 2 of the candidate is T-50 and M-346. Which are similar to JL-15 in performance.

 

[tphuang]

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

Keep in mind that at the moment, JJ-9 fits all of the PLANAF and PLAAF requireements, while L-15 doesn't (engine). JJ-9 also seems to be a much better option for countries that are looking for a cheap low cost fighter to replace their J-7s. L-15 is definitely in a better position now than a couple of years ago, but i wouldn't be so boastful about it yet.

 

[Jeff Head]

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

You fellows can argue about which aircraft is the best and who has the best training. the only thing that counts is that when the training is over is that the pilot is properly trained an ready to assume his/her position as a combat ready pilot.

And to that end, the US operates two very effective trainer aircraft, the T-38 Talon for US Air Force use, and the T-45 Goshawk for US Navy use.

Both have been updated significantly over time.

The T-38 is based off of the F-5 Freedom fighter of which many were built for export. The US Airfoce adopted a two seat training version, the T-38 in 1961 when the T-38A was initially introduced. They were built through 1972. The latest config is the T-38C which all aircraft are updated to conform to. They have a capability for arming since they also perform armament/combat training, so there are hard points for rocket pods, bomsbs, etc. A replacement program for them called T-X is just getting underway for the T-38s, but all aircraft have recieved life extension programs so the oldest will remain in service at least until 2020, when it is expected that the new trained will begin coming online.

Specifications:
Crew: 2: student and instructor
Length: 46 ft 4.5 in (14.14 m)
Wingspan: 25 ft 3 in (7.7 m)
Height: 12 ft 10.5 in (3.92 m)
Wing area: 170 ft² (16 m²)
Empty weight: 7,200 lb (3,270 kg)
Max. takeoff weight: 12,093 lb (5,485 kg)
Powerplant: 2 × General Electric J85-5A (J85-5R after PMP modification) afterburning turbojets
Maximum speed: Mach 1.3 (858 mph, 1,381 km/h)
Range: 1,140 mi (1,835 km)
Service ceiling: 50,000 ft (15,240 m)
Rate of climb: 33,600 ft/min (170.7 m/s)

The US has 501 T-38C Talons of which 459 serve with the US Airforce, 32 with Nasa, and 10 with the US Navy. Other operators include Turkey with 67, Taiwan with 40 and Germany with 35. So a total of 642 are in use around the world. Not a bad contract to win.

The T-45 Goshawk is based on on the British Hawk Mk.60. The US adopted a two seat, updated version for carrier operations in 1988 with modifications to the landing gear, strengthening of the airframe, a two wheel nose gear, and modifications to the airframe to allow for lower approach speeds. Te fuselage behind the cockpit and main wings were built in England, the forward portion of the jet and the rest of the aircraft is built in the US and assembled in St. Loise, Missouri.

The first aircraft became operational in 1991 as the T-45A. As with the Talon, all aircraft are now being updated to the all glass, much improved T-45C version. They are designed to have a combat training capability and so have hardpoints under each wing for bombs, rocket pods or fuel tanks.

Specifications:
Crew: 2 (student, instructor)
Length: 39 ft 4 in (11.99 m)
Wingspan: 30 ft 10 in (9.39 m)
Height: 13 ft 5 in (4.08 m)
Wing area: 190.1 ft² (17.7 m²)
Empty weight: 10,403 lb (4,460 kg)
Max. takeoff weight: 14,081 lb (6,387 kg)
Powerplant: 1 × Rolls-Royce Turbomeca F405-RR-401 (Adour) turbofan, 5,527 lbf (26 kN)
Maximum speed: 560 knots, (645 mph, 1,038 km/h) at 8,000 ft
Range: 700 nmi (805 mi, 1288 km)
Service ceiling: 42,500 ft (12,950 m)
Rate of climb: 8,000 ft/min (40.6 m/s)

The US Navy is the only operator of these aircraft and they have 223 of them. The last aircraft were produced in 2007 and there is no current plan for a replacement with all aircraft expected to serve at least through 2035.

So, all in all, the US military operates about 725 modern jet trainers for its Air Foce and Navy (and Marine) aviators. Many entire air forces are smaller than this. The US is very blessed and has a great advantage to be able to have so many good jet trainers for its pilots and it enhances their capabilities greatly for when they get put into the cockpits of their actual assigned aircraft to begin preparing for full operational capability with them.

 

[adeptitus]

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

I doubt the Korean will lower the price but the Indonesia might threaten to use switch over to L-15 to make Korea lower it. I hope the threatening will turn into a real deal. Haha...

Part of the purchase will be paid in barter:

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To be fair, back in 1992 China negotiated to buy Su-27 from Russia with 70% barter good too. The Russians wanted $1 billion for 24 planes, I doubt they got anywhere close to that in cash.

 

[SteelBird]

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

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Look what I found, US is actually trying finding trainer to replace their older jets, and the 2 of the candidate is T-50 and M-346. Which are similar to JL-15 in performance.

I wish the US would consider JL-15

Keep in mind that at the moment, JJ-9 fits all of the PLANAF and PLAAF requireements, while L-15 doesn't (engine). JJ-9 also seems to be a much better option for countries that are looking for a cheap low cost fighter to replace their J-7s. L-15 is definitely in a better position now than a couple of years ago, but i wouldn't be so boastful about it yet.

I recall someone wrote in the PLAN Carrier thread "what is not outdated is not China"