Shenyang FC-31 / J-31 Fighter Demonstrator

NikeX

Banned Idiot
What would be considered a valid source? News articles are of course out of the question. Russian sources are chronically flawed. Chinese sources are propaganda. American sources are only trying to push their budgets....

I think the forum should pool a ticket for NikeX to go to China to see it with his own eyes.....

No wait, then he'd be prone to visual illusions.

In the end, only F22 and F35 are the true, physical, proven stealth fighters in the world.

F-22 and F-35 are old designs remember, created in the 1980s using 1980s technologies. Today new follow on fighters are in the design stages and promise to continue what F-22 has started.

Regarding travel to China I have my own resources and contacts in China. Thank you
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
The pace of the creation of new technology depends on the system allowing the creation. In a free-to-create system you can have unrelated conditions coming together to create new technologies where those technologies formerly did not exist. The examples are the Wright Brothers creating an aircraft in their bicycle shop, or Hewlett-Packard being founded in a one-car garage in Palo Alto by William (Bill) Redington Hewlett and Dave Packard to create a personal computer market where one did not exist before. Or even Apple computer being started by founders Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak in a garage to go on to create an industry that did not exist before.

The point is that China is not set up like that. China is not set up to allow seemly unrelated technologies to come together in a manner that gives birth to a completely new direction.

And this is why the constant cry in China is to innovate. Innovation is the weak spot in the Chinese system. And to state that pushing the fringe of new technologies goes at a slower rate than those trying to catch up fails to take into account the creative energies flowing in cultures that make it possible for somebody in a garage to come with something that can spawn a completely new industry seemly out of nowhere.

There will always be innovation flowing that will maintain the creative edge for those countries with the lead. They realize that their lead is maintained by out the box thinking. Its literally in the DNA. And that out the box thinking makes it very difficult for those countries with a step by step incremental approach to development of technology to ever gain a lead. The more they become dependent upon following the more they will be followers


There goes your silly argument about environmental condition to inhibit innovative thinking. There goes your bashing that the Chinese system is just too inferior to create anything on its own. Uhh...the Chinese has been inventing for thousands of yours through out many forms of governments and dynasties. In the end it's all about the scientific talents, knowledge and skills that makes it happen. You don't think Leonardo De Vinci couldn't be as instrumental during his time considering he has to face challenges and accusation of witch craft from the Catholic Churches inquisition? The man just focus on his work, don't care about the politics, but yet being careful of the situation outside of his lab. All countries are inherited with a scientific DNA to do research and developed. It's the country that continues to promote science, math, and research with the discipline can achieve greatness.

The so called "constant cry of innovation" in China is more about the manufacturing of goods and services for the public, NOT high tech stuff. But here a list of modern Chinese inventions:

Anti-ship ballistic missile: The anti-ship ballistic missile is a quasiballistic missile designed to hit a warship at sea. The Chinese military developed the "world’s first anti-ship ballistic missile system", although officials at the United States Navy are uncertain of the weapon's efficacy. According to the U.S. Navy, the ASBM is currently in "initial operational capability" and is approaching deployment.

Arteminisinin, anti-malarial treatment: The antimalarial drug of compound artemisinin found in Artemisia annua, the latter being a plant long used in traditional Chinese medicine, was discovered in 1972 by Chinese scientists in the People's Republic led by Tu Youyou (???) and has been used to treat multi-drug resistant strains of Plasmodium falciparum malaria.

Cloning, fish: In 1963, Chinese embryologist Tong Dizhou produced the world's first cloned fish by inserting the DNA from a cell of a male carp into an egg from a female carp. He published the findings in a Chinese science journal. This occurred eleven years after the first alleged cloning of an animal, tadpoles in 1952, and 34 years before the cloning of Dolly the Sheep in 1996.

Electronic cigarette, electronic cigar, electronic pipe: The electronic cigarette, an electrical device that attempts to simulate the act of tobacco smoking, was invented in 2003 by Hon Lik, a Chinese pharmacist in Beijing. The patent for the invention is owned by Ruyan, a pharmaceutical corporation based in Hong Kong. The electronic cigarette consists of "a small lithium battery that atomizes a liquid solution of nicotine", producing a vapor that is inhaled.

Heterosis in rice, three-line hybrid rice system: A team of agricultural scientists headed by Yuan Longping applied heterosis to rice, developing the three-line hybrid rice system in 1973. The innovation allowed for roughly 12,000 kg (26,450 lbs) of rice to be grown per hectare (10,000 m2). Hybrid rice has proven to be greatly beneficial in areas where there is little arable land, and has been adopted by several Asian and African countries. Yuan won the 2004 Wolf Prize in agriculture for his work.

Maglev wind power generators: In 2006, a new type of wind power generator employing magnetic levitation (maglev) was showcased at the Wind Power Asia Exhibition in Beijing. Li Guokun was the chief scientific developer of the new maglev wind power generator, in collaboration with the Guangzhou Energy Research Institute under the Chinese Academy of Sciences and the Zhongke Hengyuan Energy Technology Company based in Guangzhou. Li Guokun states that traditional wind turbines need high wind speeds to start, due to friction caused by their bearings. The new frictionless maglev wind generator requires wind speeds of only 1.5 m per second (or 5 km an hour) to start and are expected to cut operational costs for wind farms by half, i.e. overall cost of roughly 0.4 Chinese yuan per kilowatt hour.

Synthesis of crystalline bovine insulin: In 1965, Chinese scientists synthesized bovine insulin, with the "same crystalline form and biological activities as natural insulin."[529][530] The project began in 1958, and is considered one of the "first proteins ever synthesized in vitro.

Tianhe interconnect, supercomputing: According to Ashlee Vance, Chinese researchers have developed an interconnect that "can handle data at about twice the speed of InfiniBand." This interconnect is essential to the Tianhe-IA, which is currently the second fastest supercomputer in the world.


And that's just the tip of the ice berg my friend.
 

Engineer

Major
Look you can try your best to lie to your self but 117 and 117S are not an Al-31, they are new engines, so different that in the United Engine Corporation they are listed as different engines
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, plus the fact is T-50 can Supercruise and also MiG 1.44 could supercruise, the only reason Al-41F was not used is because Russia miniaturized the technologies of Al-41F to make it fit into T-50 because Russia wanted a smaller and cheaper jet than MiG 1.44.
You are up to your
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again, as no one has claimed an AL-31 equates to 117. The simple truth that you are trying to hide is that 117 is based technologies on AL-31 and AL-41, which makes Russia working with technologies that originated from the Soviet Union. This is not to say Russia has done nothing, as integrating technologies from the two involves a lot of work. However, this is a work that cannot be comparable to designing and building a total new engine as China is doing with the WS-15.

117S=Al-41F-1
AL-41F1 does not equate to AL-41 that was designed for the MiG1.44. The AL-41 from which 117 draws technologies is a Soviet Union product. Development of AL-41 ceased after Soviet Union dissolved, and now the old designation is being reused for marketing purpose.

the Credit is to the same engineer Victor Mikhailovich Chepkin who is a Russian now and was a Soviet citizen and who worked in the Al-41 and 117 projects as the Chief Designer of both Projects
This is another
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. Being the chief engineer does not mean a person designed, built, and tested every single component himself. The simple fact is that AL-31 and AL-41 are products of the Soviet Union, extensively used by Russia to come up with the 117 engine.
 

NikeX

Banned Idiot
There goes your silly argument about environmental condition to inhibit innovative thinking. There goes your bashing that the Chinese system is just too inferior to create anything on its own. Uhh...the Chinese has been inventing for thousands of yours through out many forms of governments and dynasties. In the end it's all about the scientific talents, knowledge and skills that makes it happen. You don't think Leonardo De Vinci couldn't be as instrumental during his time considering he has to face challenges and accusation of witch craft from the Catholic Churches inquisition? The man just focus on his work, don't care about the politics, but yet being careful of the situation outside of his lab. All countries are inherited with a scientific DNA to do research and developed. It's the country that continues to promote science, math, and research with the discipline can achieve greatness.

And there goes your inferiority complex kicking in on cue. Everything I posted is true. Isn't it true that the big word in China is to innovate? So where did that come from?

And you know it is next to impossible for a few Chinese individuals with a burning idea to build something in a garage somewhere and see that idea from creation to market. When Steve Jobs died the Chinese media was lamenting about how there never could be a Steve Jobs in China

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China operates in a command economy driven from the top down. While there has been some relaxation of this command thinking under the ideas of Deng Xiaoping, its still the same operation. And today you have the get-rich-as-soon-as-you-can drive that has contaminated creative thinking to where important ideas are trampled into the ground in the rush to make money any way you can

The so called "constant cry of innovation" in China is more about the manufacturing of goods and services for the public, NOT high tech stuff. But here a list of modern Chinese inventions:

I see you admit that what I say about innovation and China is basically true. Thanks for being honest

Anti-ship ballistic missile: The anti-ship ballistic missile is a quasiballistic missile designed to hit a warship at sea. The Chinese military developed the "world’s first anti-ship ballistic missile system", although officials at the United States Navy are uncertain of the weapon's efficacy. According to the U.S. Navy, the ASBM is currently in "initial operational capability" and is approaching deployment.

With not one test of this missile this system continues to remain a concept. I don't give a damn what the US Navy says. Fly the missile and show the world. And this concept is not new. Check out the Pershing missile deployed in the 1980s and the Russian SS-NX-13 if you want to understand the origins of this Anti-Ship Ballistic missile claimed by the Chinese.

To sum things up you need a different type of thinking to develop breakthough designs for aircraft and engines and China lacks that thinking and will for sometime
 

Engineer

Major
Thats a future possibility from what I understood. But, right now, the PAK-FA will have a blocker (T-50-3 onwards) not too unlike the X-32 (Not a fixed-blocker like in the F/A-18E/F). The blocker will tackle the exposed engine face.

Radar blocker will help, but it isn't an elegant solution. Here is a picture of the radar blocker on an F/A-18E/F, and one can still see the fan blades behind the blocker:
2NrUo.jpg


The problem with a blocker is that it is an obstacle in a region that requires smooth air flow, lowering the efficiency of the inlets thus decreasing the efficiency of the engines. Even with variable vanes on blocker like that of X-32, the pilot can only choose between low RCS and good engine performance. He cannot have both as an F-22 pilot could.
 

kyanges

Junior Member
The pace of the creation of new technology depends on the system allowing the creation. In a free-to-create system you can have unrelated conditions coming together to create new technologies where those technologies formerly did not exist. The examples are the Wright Brothers creating an aircraft in their bicycle shop, or Hewlett-Packard being founded in a one-car garage in Palo Alto by William (Bill) Redington Hewlett and Dave Packard to create a personal computer market where one did not exist before. Or even Apple computer being started by founders Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak in a garage to go on to create an industry that did not exist before.

The point is that China is not set up like that. China is not set up to allow seemly unrelated technologies to come together in a manner that gives birth to a completely new direction.

And this is why the constant cry in China is to innovate. Innovation is the weak spot in the Chinese system. And to state that pushing the fringe of new technologies goes at a slower rate than those trying to catch up fails to take into account the creative energies flowing in cultures that make it possible for somebody in a garage to come with something that can spawn a completely new industry seemly out of nowhere.

There will always be innovation flowing that will maintain the creative edge for those countries with the lead. They realize that their lead is maintained by out the box thinking. Its literally in the DNA. And that out the box thinking makes it very difficult for those countries with a step by step incremental approach to development of technology to ever gain a lead. The more they become dependent upon following the more they will be followers

I don't understand. When you say, "Not set up to", what exactly are you saying is stopping the Chinese from putting stuff together in their garages?
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
The pace of the creation of new technology depends on the system allowing the creation. In a free-to-create system you can have unrelated conditions coming together to create new technologies where those technologies formerly did not exist. The examples are the Wright Brothers creating an aircraft in their bicycle shop, or Hewlett-Packard being founded in a one-car garage in Palo Alto by William (Bill) Redington Hewlett and Dave Packard to create a personal computer market where one did not exist before. Or even Apple computer being started by founders Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak in a garage to go on to create an industry that did not exist before.

The point is that China is not set up like that. China is not set up to allow seemly unrelated technologies to come together in a manner that gives birth to a completely new direction.

And this is why the constant cry in China is to innovate. Innovation is the weak spot in the Chinese system. And to state that pushing the fringe of new technologies goes at a slower rate than those trying to catch up fails to take into account the creative energies flowing in cultures that make it possible for somebody in a garage to come with something that can spawn a completely new industry seemly out of nowhere.

There will always be innovation flowing that will maintain the creative edge for those countries with the lead. They realize that their lead is maintained by out the box thinking. Its literally in the DNA. And that out the box thinking makes it very difficult for those countries with a step by step incremental approach to development of technology to ever gain a lead. The more they become dependent upon following the more they will be followers

*Sigh*, the pace of creation for new technologies is indeed system dependent, but you also have to recognize the inherent time cost involved in the creation of new things. That time cost is not the same for the recreation of old ones, especially with component templates and concepts already in existence. Right now you are mixing up two different arguments. There is one argument for whether China can "innovate" at or beyond the level of other countries, but there is another as to whether China will be able to catch up to that level of technology. The latter proceeds at a naturally much quicker pace than the former. I'm not entirely sure China is systemically prepared to create completely new concepts and technologies faster than the West (though at the same time I do not think they're as unprepared as you are implying), but that is different from saying they are unable to close a technology gap.

I don't understand. When you say, "Not set up to", what exactly are you saying is stopping the Chinese from putting stuff together in their garages?

What he's trying to say is that China doesn't have a system that's conducive to the "liquid networks" concept, which is one of many elements that can contribute to high levels of innovation. It's a complete sidestep from his previous argument, which is that China is incapable of closing a technology gap. He's conflating the two because he's treating the pace of all technological development as dependent on the same factors.
 
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lostsoul

Junior Member
There will always be innovation flowing that will maintain the creative edge for those countries with the lead. They realize that their lead is maintained by out the box thinking. Its literally in the DNA.

You are verging on Racism here (whether by accident or not).:mad:
I am am sure there are a wealth of "innovators" in the west who have Chinese heritage.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
And there goes your inferiority complex kicking in on cue. Everything I posted is true. Isn't it true that the big word in China is to innovate? So where did that come from?

And you know it is next to impossible for a few Chinese individuals with a burning idea to build something in a garage somewhere and see that idea from creation to market. When Steve Jobs died the Chinese media was lamenting about how there never could be a Steve Jobs in China

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China operates in a command economy driven from the top down. While there has been some relaxation of this command thinking under the ideas of Deng Xiaoping, its still the same operation. And today you have the get-rich-as-soon-as-you-can drive that has contaminated creative thinking to where important ideas are trampled into the ground in the rush to make money any way you can



I see you admit that what I say about innovation and China is basically true. Thanks for being honest



With not one test of this missile this system continues to remain a concept. I don't give a damn what the US Navy says. Fly the missile and show the world. And this concept is not new. Check out the Pershing missile deployed in the 1980s and the Russian SS-NX-13 if you want to understand the origins of this Anti-Ship Ballistic missile claimed by the Chinese.

To sum things up you need a different type of thinking to develop breakthough designs for aircraft and engines and China lacks that thinking and will for sometime


Actually everything you posted is fishing for any single little detail that you can try to find as way to show how the Chinese are "behind" in their advancements. Your insecurity and nervousness of a Chinese rise is showing big time. Thanks for the outstanding work of showing the world your sour grapes.


"With not one test of this missile this system continues to remain a concept. I don't give a damn what the US Navy says. Fly the missile and show the world. And this concept is not new. Check out the Pershing missile deployed in the 1980s and the Russian SS-NX-13 if you want to understand the origins of this Anti-Ship Ballistic missile claimed by the Chinese."

So you admit it exist then? Does the Pershing even travel at the same speed as the Df-21D? Nope. Does the Pershing even has the same action and guidance system like the DF-21D when re-entering the atmosphere? Nope.
 
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