Not really. Nose and wings can be reused, so is the aerodynamic concepts. Much of the subsystems can be reused also.
BTW, we are getting away from the topic.
JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread
- Thread starter johnqh
- Start date
Not really. Nose and wings can be reused, so is the aerodynamic concepts. Much of the subsystems can be reused also.
BTW, we are getting away from the topic.
We are getting away, but this point is too important. J-20 will use two of the largest engines for its speed range. The single engine plane will have no more than half the thrust, so about half the weight. Nose and wings will be much smaller. The fuselage will have a very different structure. The air intake(s) will be where? The weapons bays will I think be on the side. But how will the undercarriage be arranged? Even if you use all the knowledge you won designing J-20 ( of course you do ), you start with a new preliminary design and go on from there.
asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
Pakistan was only the 2nd nation after Israel to recieve the F16, not only that it was also the 2nd nation to use the F16 in combat when it scored its first kill on a Soviet fighter over the skys of Parachinar in 1986
PAF pilots have pretty much mastered the flying of the F16, with nearly 3 decades of operational experience, the JF17 was designed with the help of these PAF pilots who have dog fighting drilled into them ever since cadet school, its the fine art of PAF and every pilot lives and breaths it
so its no suprise that the JF17 is one hell of a agile fighter, probably close to the F16 if not exceeding it in certain areas, JF17 pilots who have flown F16 say it is not that far off, it was designed for that role, so in that aspect it could be better than J10 no reason to think otherwise
later block JF17s will use advanced Chinese weapons like SD10 versions and PL9C etc which are the same weapons that J10 will use, having a powerful radar in JF17 coulped with advanced avionics and electronics there is not that much between the 2
PAF has enough confidence to pit the JF17 against any Indian aircraft, that includes the Su-30 MKI, that says alot
---------- Post added at 06:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:55 PM ----------
there is no such spies that will put into danger Chinese fighters, they are based far away from Americans and no outsiders are allowed to visit the bases let alone the fighters, if anything its Americans that are worried about thier equipment going to the Chinese
Indias next generation fighter is now going to Rafale, considering Pakistans policys of minimum deterance, there is no chance PAF will go for J20, its quite simply a overkill
right now PAF will concentrate on JF17, Rafale wont enter service until 2015 or even later, by that time PAF will be in a better position to re-evaluate its procurrment programme, if J10B or some other fighter is up for sale then surely it will be under consideration but its too early to start talking about J20 sales
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Schumacher
Senior Member
They're saying J10 for PAF is actually already confirmed but it'll be J10A, not B, for the first batch at least.
asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
who is? so far nothing is confirmed, if anything J10 seems to be on hold, this could be after PAF re-evaluated JF17 performance during combat missions over Waziristan, because before that there was much specualtion that a order for a custom built J10 is coming soon, but now that PAF has seen the Thunder is action it suggests they are more than happy with it
plus if PAF gets J10 it will be under ToT and Kamra will be doing the work, and PAC Chairman AVM Farhat Hussian Khan said in July last year that getting the first JF17 off the production line was quote "toughest times of my life" the whole operation was monitored by PAF Chief and Air Staff, basically there is no way they can handle anything else right now
we also have issues with training pilots, for example day after PT-3 first flew on April 9 2004 2 PAF pilots Sqn Ldr Mohammed Ehsan and Sqn Ldr Rashid Habib also flew PT-3, both pilots were based at Chengdu Flight Training Centre, they were joined by more pilots flying 4 prototypes, this was 8 years ago!
through the years, Chinese test pilot institute and the Chinese test pilot school have trained some of the veterns of JF17 like Wg Cdr Hakim Raza, who has clocked more than 400 hours, inducting new aircraft means just more than the aircraft, entire establishment needs re-trained cus now PAF does not buy just buy aircraft, it makes them and relys on itself (we learned lessons from US embargo)
so far there is no indication that PAF has sent any pilots to China for training on J10, i am not saying J10 is not on the cards it is, but first thing is to see how JF17 matures and develops
talk about JF17 vs J10, and J10 being inducted into PAF in my opinion should be left alone, until we see confirmation, lets focus on what we actually have and what we are doing with it
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Dizasta1
Senior Member
If that were the case, Pakistan Air Force would have received J-10As a lot earlier than anticipated. Fact of the matter is, as stated in various news articles, that Pakistan Air Force specified certain changes to their J-10s.
And if we apply some logic, we can see that CAC-PAC incorporated Divertless Supersonic Intakes on the JF-17 Thunders. So, it would be logical to assume that PAF would want the same for J-10s as well. Knowing well that J-10As do not have DSI, would be another reason why PAF didn't select the J-10As.
Also, it is claimed, that Pakistan Air Force also requested that the J-10s should have AESA Radars on them. So there is every reason to believe that the J-10Bs (not J-10As), are the ones that Pakistan Air Force really want. The capabilities are necessary in the J-10Bs, as Pakistan wants to redress the balance of Air Power, vis-a-vis the enemy, hindustan.
There is no doubt that J-10A is a very potent and lethal fighter jet. But as technology evolves and adversaries compete, it is only common sense to field fighters which are capable to challenging enemy fighters.
Today, United States is rapidly upgrading its existing F-15 Eagles with AN/APG-63(V)3 AESA Radars, besides the F-22 which already has a powerful AN/APG-77 AESA Radar, as does the F-35 with AN/APG-81 AESA Radars. Hence it would be prudent for China to incorporate its fighters (J-10s, J-11s, JH-7s, JF-17s & J-15s) with AESA Radar capability.
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asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
I do not think so, not sure about J10 but lets take for example the cockpit, JF17 is equipped with 3 mutli-function diplays (MFDs) which provide a tatical picture, digital moving map and aircrafts performannce data, the pilot has a very little workload and the layout and design focuses on a efficient Man and Machine interface (MMI), included is a Helment Mounted Display (HMD) a wide-angle Smart Head up Display (SHUD), hands-on-throttle-and-stick (HOTAS) controls and a zero-zero ejection seat which by the way is the PK16LE Martin Baker, derived from MK16 which is used by the F35, Typhoon and Rafale, in addition PAF requested a custom built seat with upgrades, to includes passive leg restraints, back rests extended by 3 inches, rearward firing headbox and drogue and a electronic sequencer, this is probably the worlds best ejection seat, unfortunately it wasnt enough to save Sqn Ldr Hussain but thats life of a fighter pilot for you even F22 Raptor pilots have died
obviously ive focused on just one aspect of the plane, the cockpit but my point is that top to bottom JF17 is a custom built aircraft specifically built for the needs of PAF, no outside aircraft can match that
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Sorry, not convincing, at least to me.
Just who do you think developed FC-1's avionics? FC-1's avionics is a simplified version of J-10's, with minor improvements. If PLA choose to, it can upgrade all J-10's avionics today to exceed what's installed on FC-1. And avionics is the simplest thing to upgrade -- and compare to Pakistani, China is not short of money, engineering, and manufacturing capability.
Remember fighter itself is a part of system of systems. PLA's air defense network is much more elaborate that Pakistan's. When tied into respective national network, Pakistani JC-1 connected to Pakistani network may not even have a chance to shoot when facing a J-10 connected to the Chinese network.
I am not going to argue about ejection seat -- they all have about the same spec. And it's not strictly relevant to the aircraft's performance and war fighting ability besides giving the pilots peace of mind.
The same can be said of J-10 -- it's tailor made for PLA. The original argument is China should buy FC-1. FC-1 is tailored for Pakistani requirements, but NOT PLA's. Compare to this you have J-10 which is. You just hoist by your own petard.
I do agree FC-1 fit best to Pakistani requirement -- financially and militarily. Whether it fit Chinese requirement is another issue entirely.
Just who do you think developed FC-1's avionics? FC-1's avionics is a simplified version of J-10's, with minor improvements. If PLA choose to, it can upgrade all J-10's avionics today to exceed what's installed on FC-1. And avionics is the simplest thing to upgrade -- and compare to Pakistani, China is not short of money, engineering, and manufacturing capability.
Remember fighter itself is a part of system of systems. PLA's air defense network is much more elaborate that Pakistan's. When tied into respective national network, Pakistani JC-1 connected to Pakistani network may not even have a chance to shoot when facing a J-10 connected to the Chinese network.
I am not going to argue about ejection seat -- they all have about the same spec. And it's not strictly relevant to the aircraft's performance and war fighting ability besides giving the pilots peace of mind.
The same can be said of J-10 -- it's tailor made for PLA. The original argument is China should buy FC-1. FC-1 is tailored for Pakistani requirements, but NOT PLA's. Compare to this you have J-10 which is. You just hoist by your own petard.
I do agree FC-1 fit best to Pakistani requirement -- financially and militarily. Whether it fit Chinese requirement is another issue entirely.
>>>FC-1's avionics is a simplified version of J-10's, with minor improvements.
I am looking forward to the technical details that are the foundation of this very clear statement.... Simplified with minor improvements? Which avionic? What was simplified? What are the improvements? Since you are so clear you pretty much can explain them very easy and simplistic so I can understand them. Thanks in advance...
I am looking forward to the technical details that are the foundation of this very clear statement.... Simplified with minor improvements? Which avionic? What was simplified? What are the improvements? Since you are so clear you pretty much can explain them very easy and simplistic so I can understand them. Thanks in advance...
asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
was J10 cockpit layout designed after hundreds of hours of input by fighter pilots who have amongst the highest flying hours in the world? did PLAAF fighter pilots work with the engineers and designers to custom make J10 to fulfill the needs for PLAAF? answer is No, no aircraft not even F35 was designed by fighter pilots, JF17 stands alone in that respect
actually J10 has faced alot of issues and problems in that regard and has been changed alot whereas JF17 has hit the production line in break neck speed
the beauty with avionics with JF17 is that it can take Chinese or Western systems, can J10 do this? it has one of the best avionic systems in the world, able to carry WVR, BVR , Precision-guided munitions for laser and satellite guided bombs, anti-ship missiles, and anti-radiation missiles
Pakistan has taken delivery of the Brazilian MAR-1 anti-radiation missile and is integrating the weapon on the JF17 aircraft as well as the AIM-9L and South African A-Darter
in addition Day/Night targeting pods, data-linking, electronic warfare (EW) suite and self-protection radar jamming pod form the tatical avionics
u seen to give just personal opinions with no facts to back up ur claims, jumping to conclusions and making statments is easy, please share what you know if there is something i dont know
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