Chinese Citizens REVOLT in Wukan!!

Engineer

Major
Umm, it makes a massive difference. For example, I have a right to protest in my back garden - I don't have a right to break into yours and protest there.
This is similar to free-speech and free-speech zones. You can protest in free-speech zones, but the government can make sure they are located in far away places so you will not be heard. And since when did
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became private properties?

Oh God, not more whining about India.

Guys, whatever chips you have on your shoulders about India, I suggest you get over it.
You keep harping about democracy and we will keep bringing up India. Why not? Just because India doesn't measure up to your fantasy, that doesn't mean it isn't a democracy and cannot be compared to. There is also Mexico, which ranks 98 on the
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, and Philippines, which ranked 134th. Both of these countries are also democracy, yet they are even worse off than China.

Singapore isn't strictly a democracy as the ruling party always wins majority in the house. It also has draconian laws that don't meet Western standards of respecting human rights. Yet, it is ranked 1st place on the Corruption Perceptions Index.

China can be a better democracy than India.
This is pure speculation. What is not a pure speculation is that China is not a democracy by Western standard, and it is better than India.

And don't pretend that India "suffers" from democracy just because it's big. Belgium is tiny, but had a caretaker government for 541 days. Seriously. Why? Because the way by which politicians are elected is flawed.
This is the perfect-democracy fallacy.

But you're ignoring America's incredible rise. They built a whole country from scratch in double-quick time and became the most powerful country in the world. You can't denounce an entire political system just because there are sometimes disagreements on how to get things done. America has massively benefited from democracy and accompanying freedoms/rights.
And you cannot ignore China's incredible rise. A whole country is rebuilt from scratch in 30 years and becomes one of the most powerful countries in the world. You can't denounce an entire political system just because it doesn't conform to how you were "taught" as to how a government should be run. China has massively benefited from its current political system and the accompanying independence and rise in standard-of-living, both are measurable as opposed to meaningless terms like freedom and democracy.

How is any of that relevant to this discussion? We're talking about change in China today. China doesn't have to introduce 18th century "democracy". It can just grant modern democratic rights and freedoms to everyone. As I said earlier, China can choose how to bring in reform. It's not shopping from a catalogue with limited options, it can look at all the democratic systems in the world and pull good aspects from all of them.
Good is not synonyms of democratic system. If a country has something that China can learn from, China will learn from that country regardless of its political system. You are right that China is not shopping from a catalog with limited options, but you and people like you are trying to push a catalog with limited options onto China.

For example, I would go with a parliamentary system. The president would have limited powers for emergency situations. He or she could be directly elected or appointment by parliament.

MPs would be elected by first past the post, making it easier for a party or parties to form a stable majority government. Parliament would also select the PM, who would be the nation's leader. This would avoid the situation in the US where the president doesn't necessarily have a majority in Congress. And that's just for starters.

There is no perfect political system, but China is in an enviable position of being able to pick and choose the means for which it will become a proper democracy.

This is a complete fantasy of yours. Let's stick to reality. What China needs is a functional system, not proper democracy.
 

solarz

Brigadier
For example, I would go with a parliamentary system. The president would have limited powers for emergency situations. He or she could be directly elected or appointment by parliament.

MPs would be elected by first past the post, making it easier for a party or parties to form a stable majority government. Parliament would also select the PM, who would be the nation's leader. This would avoid the situation in the US where the president doesn't necessarily have a majority in Congress. And that's just for starters.

There is no perfect political system, but China is in an enviable position of being able to pick and choose the means for which it will become a proper democracy.

LOL, you mean Canada? Yeah, no problems here... :rolleyes:

I find it funny how you keep harping about democracy, and yet dismiss examples of nations where democracy sucks.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Oh God, not more whining about India.

Guys, whatever chips you have on your shoulders about India, I suggest you get over it. China can be a better democracy than India.

And don't pretend that India "suffers" from democracy just because it's big. Belgium is tiny, but had a caretaker government for 541 days. Seriously. Why? Because the way by which politicians are elected is flawed.

If you want to compare 2 countries economic and political development, find 2 countries with comparable social and economical development,. India is comparable to China in every sense . Both of them are large in term of landmass and population. Both are newly independent countries.Both of them suffer from colonialism. both of them have indigenous culture. Heck India even had a head start. Indian economy is 4X larger than Chinese economy in 1947. India has the best infrastructure and industry then, India inherited good civil servant and school system from British administration. The treasury is brimming with surplus
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China was completely devastated by the incessant warlord ism,WWII, civil war. The KMT carted off all the gold in reserve bank, NO infrastructure or industry to speak off other than some in North west but the Russian clean everything up when they return the Manchurian provinces.So as Engineer said China start from Scratch! In other word China is ganz kaput

Yet 50 years fast forward China economy is 5 times Indian economy(1.4 vs 6.5 Trillion dollars) China's infrastructure is world class compare to third world, You can compare every indices of life and China is well ahead
So now How can you explain that ?. China must doing something right that India didn't

But you're ignoring America's incredible rise. They built a whole country from scratch in double-quick time and became the most powerful country in the world. You can't denounce an entire political system just because there are sometimes disagreements on how to get things done. America has massively benefited from democracy and accompanying freedoms/rights.

Yet with all the favorable condition such as bountiful country. moderate climate and relatively free from natural disaster, free from interference and aggression from neighboring countries, It take America 200 years to achieve their high living standard.

China constantly has to face interference and meddling . Right after her independence she has to face KOREAN War, Indian border war.Vietnam war.

Only 40% of China's land mass is suitable for agriculture the rest is waste land, China is prone to natural disaster. too much rain, too little rain, earth quake, flooding, Icing You name it

Yet within the span of 30 years she effectively eliminated poverty and lift 400 million out of grinding poverty. No one has ever done that in such a short period of time!
Remember that

How is any of that relevant to this discussion? We're talking about change in China today. China doesn't have to introduce 18th century "democracy". It can just grant modern democratic rights and freedoms to everyone. As I said earlier, China can choose how to bring in reform. It's not shopping from a catalogue with limited options, it can look at all the democratic systems in the world and pull good aspects from all of them.

For example, I would go with a parliamentary system. The president would have limited powers for emergency situations. He or she could be directly elected or appointment by parliament.

MPs would be elected by first past the post, making it easier for a party or parties to form a stable majority government. Parliament would also select the PM, who would be the nation's leader. This would avoid the situation in the US where the president doesn't necessarily have a majority in Congress. And that's just for starters.

There is no perfect political system, but China is in an enviable position of being able to pick and choose the means for which it will become a proper democracy.

It has been tried before and failed miserably. The result is misery, poverty, war, warlord ism, colonial aggression, In other word a splinter and weak china , impoverished China
Now who is stupid enough to try a failed model second time around !

China is not perfect far from it But the problem of corruption, inequality, environmental degradation are part and parcel of developing country. You can't get a way from it That is why China is called developing country and not developed country.Sometime people forget that and tend to compare China to the like of Britain or Germany.

But because there are some bad apple you don't have to throw the baby with the bathwater
 
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SampanViking

The Capitalist
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Just goes to show Hendrik, that the only thing worse than getting something wrong is to get it right, but for all the wrong reasons!

What did John Lennon sing "They hate you if your clever, but they despise a fool"

That said dispute resolution is still too "Corporate" in China and things have to get very bad or unavoidable before a problem gets kicked upstairs and sorted out. Effective oversight needs to be built into the system to prevent matters going out the system to be resolved.

Regarding sale of land of development for land, I think the easiest way would be for deals for more than a certain area and or financial value need to be reviewed at a higher level and submissions from all the effected parties received and considered.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Whining about India is just as annoying as the usual suspects fishing for one subject or event to label China a failure. You know why they keep coming up? It's because there are those who just hate China and they just look for anything as an excuse to justify it. You don't want to look like a monster that just hates. The Chinese don't go around demanding the world follow them or else... You put yourself out as a model with no flaws thus expects no one to question perfection. So if flaws can be pointed out, you only have yourself to blame. If you can't easily explain the flaws in the system that those demand all in the universe follow, then it doesn't deserve unquestioning loyalty. If you're the one that expects no questions or challenges to perfection when flaws have been noted, that's self serving arrogance not altruism at work. It would be easy for someone motivated by altruism to explain themselves if they knew what they were talking about. If not, it's selfishness hiding behind altruism to cover its true self-serving nature.
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Yet within the span of 30 years she effectively eliminated poverty and lift 400 million out of grinding poverty. No one has ever done that in such a short period of time!
Remember that

Chinas economy was in ruins after the cultural revolution.If the West hadn't responded to China's desire to open up, then the chances of her economy being as big as it is today let alone much better than Indias would be zip.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Yeah and if China wasn't an ally, the Cold War and the Soviet Union would still be around not preoccupied with the new Sino-US alliance.

By that logic, what else could be applied? How about the West would have no sense of human rights since it was the fear of communism using the West's colonial history to turn the world against them in the Cold War. Before, it was quite the stark opposite in regards to belief in human rights.
 
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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Chinas economy was in ruins after the cultural revolution.If the West hadn't responded to China's desire to open up, then the chances of her economy being as big as it is today let alone much better than Indias would be zip.

It is nothing but BS to stroke the self inflated ego of the west. I am old enough to remember the west boycott China after TAM in 1989. No investment nothing , embargo, etc. Everybody was predicting the demise of CCP and throw China into chaos. And looking forward for bodies hanging from the lamp post

Now who stick with China thru thick and think and keep investing in China . Yup the overseas Chinese the loose sand Mind you they have their own calculation but still they keep faith with China. The 30 million overseas Chinese who doesn't live in proper China The Hongkong Chinese, The Singapore Chinese, the Malaysian Chinese, The Thai Chinese, the Fillipino Chinese. Specially the Taiwanese alone invest approximately 150 billion in China. Man like Charoen Pokhpand,from Thailand, Robert Kwok From Malaysia, Gordon Wu from Hongkong, Sudono Salim,Mochtar Ryadi from Indonesia and thousand like them. they keep faith
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These people have the money, the marketing skill, the industrial and technical know how to help China and help themselves!
They are and the hard work of Chinese people are the unsung hero of Chinese reform. Effectively beat the strangle hold of embargo

Soon in the 90's Korean and Japanese notice they start to loose their market of consumer good in Asia . They soon found out that they were out compete by Overseas Chinese factory in China . Like they say if you cannot beat them you join them. In fact the west is late in investing in China

They too start to invest in China with that the west has no choice but following the Japanese and the Korean investment in China
 
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ABC78

Junior Member
Here are some presentations by the author of 'China's New Confucianism: Politics and Everyday Life in a Changing Society'. He mainly talks about the resurgence of the teachings of Confucius and the Communist party. He also talks about how the pro democracy faction of the communist party is trying to craft a more democratic process that tries to limit the adversarial nature that is democracy.

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bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Hendrik_2000;171019[QUOTE said:
]It is nothing but BS to stroke the self inflated ego of the west. I am old enough to remember the west boycott China after TAM in 1989. No investment nothing , embargo, etc. Everybody was predicting the demise of CCP and throw China into chaos. And looking forward for bodies hanging from the lamp post

I seriously doubt that this boycott has anywhere the intensity as the current Wests one against Iran, where the worlds international banking services remain closed to her thereby making payment for goods exported or imported , extremely difficult. Futhermore outside the arms embargo it was up to most countries to decide whether they wanted to trade with her and more than a few continued to do so.
 
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