J-20... The New Generation Fighter II

[Blitzo]

There was a "spiritual sequel" to Top Gun called "Stealth".

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While the storyline was garbage, but the effects were pretty good, and I really dig that "F/A-37 Talon" design.
The concept of F/A-37 was originally derived from Northrop Grumman's SwitchBlade concept; except they changed the jet engine noozle to that of F-117 style design.

Yes I've seen that movie too -- it's not as gritty as top gun though, and uses too many special effects.

The Northrop Grumman's SwitchBlade concept is interesting because not only they foresee a possibility of a forward swept wing design, they also incorporated canard design while maintaining the stealth. So J-20's canard design might not yield any stealth performance penalties if the Northrop Grumman engineers had considered it as well.

Actually northrop had another design with canards: their NATF proposal, which had canards, and was even on a completely seperate plane from the wings. The idea that canards are bad for stealth are, at this moment too well known and seems unsubstantuated.

I remember reading Wikipedia's article on the PL-12 and it clearly stated that the range is in excess of 100km. Read the four footnotes for citation.

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"Operational range 100+ km[1] [2][3][4]"

Ah yes, it was this footnote inparticular:

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I think it is safe to assume the latest variants of PL-12 in service have ranges far beyond 70km, but the max range can also be skewed from the altitude they're fired at, not to mention the platform and the speed the platform is at, etc.

I think it's best to judge by the size and mass of the missile, which can tell you how much propellant they can hold and the size of the seeker -- of course how advanced a seeker and the propellant is can change the range. PL-12 is similar in size to AMRAAM, if not a little bigger so I expect it to have a similar max range (maybe a little lower), assuming propellant and seekers are a tad inferior.

With the incorporation of a ramjet, PL-12 and PL-21 range and kinetic end game performance should be better than AMRAAM. I wonder if the AIM-120 will get a ramjet upgrade any time soon.

 

[Martian]

PL-12 (SD-10) equivalent to AIM-120C from a 2008 citation

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"On the other hand, China recently produced its latest missile, the SD-10 that is used in its J-10 and J-11 fighters. It has a range of 80 km, making it comparable to AIM-120C."

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SD-10A (advanced version of SD-10/PL-12)

"Jane's Defence Weekly
December 01, 2010 issue

China's SD-10 claimed to be a dual-mode AAM.
Robert Hewson Jane's Air-Launched Weapons Editor - Zhuhai, China

China's SD-10 medium-range air-to-air missile (AAM), as exhibited at Airshow China earlier in November, may be a considerably more capable weapon than was hitherto believed, Jane's understands.

Officials from the SD-10's manufacturer, the Luoyang Electro-Optical Technology Development Center (LOEC), said the missile was designed from the beginning to function with a dual-mode seeker operating in distinct active and passive radar homing modes. If so, the SD-10 is the first AAM to enter service with this acknowledged capability.

There have been suggestions that the latest AIM-120D Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM) developed by Raytheon for the US Air Force and Navy has a similar dual-mode seeker capability. The full capabilities of the AIM-120D remain classified, but its development has been problematic and it has yet to enter operational service.

The SD-10 - the current production version is the refined SD-10A - has been cleared for service on the Chengdu J-10 and late-model versions of the Shenyang J-8 combat aircraft. By the end of this year the missile is expected to be operational with the PAC JF-17s of the Pakistan Air Force.

In lengthy discussions with LOEC at the 16-21 November Airshow China exhibition, the operating modes of the SD-10A were set out to Jane's in detail. The missile has an active terminal homing capability, which has been openly described since the first details of the SD-10 were made public in the middle of the last decade.

What has remained unspoken until now is the missile's claimed ability to home in on radar or electronic warfare emissions from the target aircraft, without support from the launch aircraft or use of the missile's own active seeker modes.

A LOEC official told Jane's that the passive mode was not intended to be the missile's primary targeting mode and cited the risks to friendly aircraft of relying on passive guidance alone. It is not clear if the SD-10A's seeker can continually alternate between active and passive modes in flight or if it makes a less sophisticated 'one time' switch.

In the past, Russian sources have given Jane's a detailed account of the assistance supplied by Russian design bureaus in the development of the SD-10. A LOEC official hinted that this co-operation is continuing when he noted: "We [LOEC] have the capability to make the seeker ourselves, but obviously we want it to be the best it possibly can." He confirmed that the missile still relied on some unidentified components that were sourced outside China.

Within Russia the AGAT Design Bureau has developed several dual-mode seeker designs which it only began discussing in public in 2009. Senior AGAT officials have remained vague when asked by Jane's about who paid for these development programmes, noting only that there is no Russian application and no Russian state support for them.

During the 1990s China also gained access to the 9B-1032 passive seeker developed by Avtomatika for the Vympel R-27P (AA-10 'Alamo') AAM. A melding of these two design inputs might explain how China arrived at its SD-10 seeker design. According to a LOEC official, the dual-mode capability was designed into the SD-10 from its inception.

An SD-10A missile (underwing) is part of the weapons suite of a Pakistan Air Force JF-17 at November's Airshow China."

 

[Red Moon]

I dont want to close this thread early. What is going to be next for J20?..

good point!

 

[Blitzo]

Re: PL-12 (SD-10) equivalent to AIM-120C from a 2008 citation

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"On the other hand, China recently produced its latest missile, the SD-10 that is used in its J-10 and J-11 fighters. It has a range of 80 km, making it comparable to AIM-120C."

Nice catch -- though that was two years ago, and I'm not sure about the source.

It also says AIM-120D has a max range of 95 km... which puts into doubt the 180km range quoted by asymptote, in whether the 180km number was fired at a much higher altitude and on a faster platform.
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(Holy cow I posted 15 times today... I need a life)

 

[tphuang]

this is definitely a lot of posts to go through. I just decided to put all of my thoughts after the first flight on my blog.

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check it out. My main point is that there are plenty of obstacles still ahead, don't get too excited now.

 

[raysimlee]

Re: If J-20 requires as much maintenance as F-22, China is in for a lot of pain.

I read (may be not true) that J20 use radar transparent skin and the radar adsorbing material is on the inside there by reducing maintenance. I also think that China is not going for extreme stealth as it already has radar and optical device that can detect F22. J20 is a compromise design for best and useful feature technically possible in China at the moment.

 

[Martian]

this is definitely a lot of posts to go through. I just decided to put all of my thoughts after the first flight on my blog.

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check it out. My main point is that there are plenty of obstacles still ahead, don't get too excited now.

I read your article. I have one question. You wrote that the J-20 is the high-end backbone; J-10 is the middle-end; and J-7 is the low-end. As I see it, the J-10 (which is not cheap) is just as vulnerable as a low-end non-stealthy aircraft.

What do you think about the idea that non-stealthy J-10s will be produced in limited numbers and the rest should be upgraded stealthy J-10 versions (e.g. similar to F-15 Silent Eagle)?

 

[Blitzo]

I read your article. I have one question. You wrote that the J-20 is the high-end backbone; J-10 is the middle-end; and J-7 is the low-end. As I see it, the J-10 (which is not cheap) is just as vulnerable as a low-end non-stealthy aircraft.

What do you think about the idea that non-stealthy J-10s will be produced in limited numbers and the rest will be upgraded stealth J-10 versions (e.g. similar to F-15 Silent Eagle)?

My 2 cents:
J-20 will be the only stealth fighter for the forseeable future until a medium stealthy fighter comes along to replace J-10 and J-11s later, but that'll be years away.
the High J-20, Medium J-11 and J-10, and Low J-7/J-8/Early flankers sounds like a fair projection and it'll be near to impossible to make a J-10 with internal weapon bays.

Only the US will have a majority-5th generation fleet in near future, and if the majority of PLAAF fighters aren't stealthy it'll be more than enough to deal with regional neighbours.

 

[Centrist]

this is definitely a lot of posts to go through. I just decided to put all of my thoughts after the first flight on my blog.

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check it out. My main point is that there are plenty of obstacles still ahead, don't get too excited now.

I read it, but I have a question for you. How can you be so sure that the WS-10 engine powering the J-20 is uprated? The WS-10 is said to give out about 132 KN of thrust, which is more than enough to get a fully armed and fully fueled J11 into the air. Can the J-20, which is unarmed and carrying little fuel, be that much heavier than the loaded Flanker?

 

[dingyibvs]

I read your article. I have one question. You wrote that the J-20 is the high-end backbone; J-10 is the middle-end; and J-7 is the low-end. As I see it, the J-10 (which is not cheap) is just as vulnerable as a low-end non-stealthy aircraft.

What do you think about the idea that non-stealthy J-10s will be produced in limited numbers and the rest should be upgraded stealthy J-10 versions (e.g. similar to F-15 Silent Eagle)?

IMO, very little chance. To stealthify a non-stealthy plane, you'll need to change enough of it to basically make a completely new plane, and the end result will cost just as much as one that's built from the ground up to be stealthy. You do save some development time, but IMO not really worth it.