J-20... The New Generation Fighter
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Re: New Generation Fighter
The real questions for me remain:
Where will this plane fit into the PLAAF Inventory?
What will it be replacing?
I am afraid; impressive though this machine is, that I am not a huge fan of Stealth nor do I have faith in single wonder weapons.
I do however have faith in integrated defence systems and the way that layers compliment the capabilities of individual platforms.
The question as to what this machine is for is one that needs answering at the earliest IMHO.
The real questions for me remain:
Where will this plane fit into the PLAAF Inventory?
What will it be replacing?
I am afraid; impressive though this machine is, that I am not a huge fan of Stealth nor do I have faith in single wonder weapons.
I do however have faith in integrated defence systems and the way that layers compliment the capabilities of individual platforms.
The question as to what this machine is for is one that needs answering at the earliest IMHO.
MwRYum
Major
Re: New Generation Fighter
The obvious candidate would be, by the weight class, regiments equipping the Su-27 (even J-11B at the later date), allowing those regiments with better multi-role capability. Of course with J-20 they've to abandon rocket pods as ground strike weapon but they'll have precision guidance munitions instead.
Replacing JH-7 perhaps? Though that'd mean they'd have to use the external pylons more often, trading RCS for capability to carry large-size ordinance like AShM, and abandon rocket pods, but if so would turn those regiments into multi-role regiments.
The obvious candidate would be, by the weight class, regiments equipping the Su-27 (even J-11B at the later date), allowing those regiments with better multi-role capability. Of course with J-20 they've to abandon rocket pods as ground strike weapon but they'll have precision guidance munitions instead.
Replacing JH-7 perhaps? Though that'd mean they'd have to use the external pylons more often, trading RCS for capability to carry large-size ordinance like AShM, and abandon rocket pods, but if so would turn those regiments into multi-role regiments.
plawolf
Lieutenant General
Roger604
Senior Member
Re: New Generation Fighter
Against aircraft other than F-22, the kill ratios may only be limited to how many AA missiles it can carry (and whether it wants to kill more using guns at close range).
It can go deep into enemy territory to destroy integrated air defenses like Patriot. This includes both SAM on the ground and AWACS in the air. It can even do decapitation missions against enemy heads of state (for example if a Taiwan "president" is elected in 2012 who declares independence).
Conceivably, it could carry anti-ship missiles to attack carrier groups. There was a discussion about this a few pages back on this thread.
It could do the roles currently tasked to J-10, J-11, JH-7 and maybe even H-6.
The only defense against J-20 is F-22's or a very dense network of SAM, radars (especially long-wave and bi-static), AWACS and combat air patrol, or of course preventing J-20 from taking off by preemptively destroying air bases.
J-20 is the tip of the spear for the entire PLAAF.
This is as close to a single wonder weapon as you can get. J-20 achieves parity against F-22 in air combat, whether defensively (over China) or offensively (over Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, all the way to Malacca Straits). There is no fighter jet in the world that has an upper hand over the J-20.
Against aircraft other than F-22, the kill ratios may only be limited to how many AA missiles it can carry (and whether it wants to kill more using guns at close range).
It can go deep into enemy territory to destroy integrated air defenses like Patriot. This includes both SAM on the ground and AWACS in the air. It can even do decapitation missions against enemy heads of state (for example if a Taiwan "president" is elected in 2012 who declares independence).
Conceivably, it could carry anti-ship missiles to attack carrier groups. There was a discussion about this a few pages back on this thread.
It could do the roles currently tasked to J-10, J-11, JH-7 and maybe even H-6.
The only defense against J-20 is F-22's or a very dense network of SAM, radars (especially long-wave and bi-static), AWACS and combat air patrol, or of course preventing J-20 from taking off by preemptively destroying air bases.
J-20 is the tip of the spear for the entire PLAAF.
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Re: New Generation Fighter
I am beginning to think that this airframe is truly a tremendous game changer strategically. To me it may well be quite a challenger to the f-22, as we know it was designed to be. The most significant difference actually seems to be its huge size. This adds range, payload, and most importantly, space for a significantly more powerful radar than that on the f-22. In principle, if the f-22 can act as a stealthy mini-awacs, then the j-20 can act as a stealthy SOMEWHAT-BIGGER mini-awacs, as that nose is huge. Therefore, just a handful of them can become a very big force multiplier, and we don't have to wait until there are several regiments of them.
We know this is a work in progress. Blanks have to be filled in as to the engine, the shaping of the rear end, radars, coatings, software, and probably other things. But we also know the rate of technological progress China is making in all these and other areas. At the speed China is going, five years is a very long time, and few expect series production to commence before then. Moreover, progress on these things can continue even after the plane is inducted.
When I call this a "game changer", I am referring to the way it will be perceived by other states, and the way it will affect everybody's calculations and plans. Most important in this is not comparison with the f-22, but with the f-35. All of a sudden, the f-35 does NOT look like such a good deal for countries in East Asia and the Western Pacific, who have already put money down or were looking to purchase this plane from 2014 onwards.
If countries drop out of the program, it will become even more expensive, and if there are calls to enhance it somehow, there will be more delays... and also more expense. If the Europeans do not feel particularly threatened by a friendlier Russia, and military budgets in Europe are being cut for purely ECONOMIC reasons anyway, this also creates additional problems for this fighter jet program. Meanwhile, the US has invested more than anybody in it, and will not want to give it up. This could lead to lots of wrangling and arm-twisting between the US and its customers.
But this is only the beginning, as the US also has to make hard choices to deal with the situation. If the US tries to strong-arm its allies into swallowing increased costs for what others see as technology which is not up to par, this will widen cracks in its alliances. If it chooses to export the f-22, it will face the costs of restarting the program, and it will be in the position of exporting its best technology, just as Russia has been doing. We all know there are other things in the pipeline, but they will not be online for a while, and now the US has to ADD more spending to push them forward faster just when it was trying to CUT. And the deficit is already huge.
In sum, not only will the US be facing a contender with comparable technology in a few years, but the correction of its fiscal mess will be delayed. As well, the situation adds one more point of friction between the US and its allies, at a time when the US could use more solidarity.
I am beginning to think that this airframe is truly a tremendous game changer strategically. To me it may well be quite a challenger to the f-22, as we know it was designed to be. The most significant difference actually seems to be its huge size. This adds range, payload, and most importantly, space for a significantly more powerful radar than that on the f-22. In principle, if the f-22 can act as a stealthy mini-awacs, then the j-20 can act as a stealthy SOMEWHAT-BIGGER mini-awacs, as that nose is huge. Therefore, just a handful of them can become a very big force multiplier, and we don't have to wait until there are several regiments of them.
We know this is a work in progress. Blanks have to be filled in as to the engine, the shaping of the rear end, radars, coatings, software, and probably other things. But we also know the rate of technological progress China is making in all these and other areas. At the speed China is going, five years is a very long time, and few expect series production to commence before then. Moreover, progress on these things can continue even after the plane is inducted.
When I call this a "game changer", I am referring to the way it will be perceived by other states, and the way it will affect everybody's calculations and plans. Most important in this is not comparison with the f-22, but with the f-35. All of a sudden, the f-35 does NOT look like such a good deal for countries in East Asia and the Western Pacific, who have already put money down or were looking to purchase this plane from 2014 onwards.
If countries drop out of the program, it will become even more expensive, and if there are calls to enhance it somehow, there will be more delays... and also more expense. If the Europeans do not feel particularly threatened by a friendlier Russia, and military budgets in Europe are being cut for purely ECONOMIC reasons anyway, this also creates additional problems for this fighter jet program. Meanwhile, the US has invested more than anybody in it, and will not want to give it up. This could lead to lots of wrangling and arm-twisting between the US and its customers.
But this is only the beginning, as the US also has to make hard choices to deal with the situation. If the US tries to strong-arm its allies into swallowing increased costs for what others see as technology which is not up to par, this will widen cracks in its alliances. If it chooses to export the f-22, it will face the costs of restarting the program, and it will be in the position of exporting its best technology, just as Russia has been doing. We all know there are other things in the pipeline, but they will not be online for a while, and now the US has to ADD more spending to push them forward faster just when it was trying to CUT. And the deficit is already huge.
In sum, not only will the US be facing a contender with comparable technology in a few years, but the correction of its fiscal mess will be delayed. As well, the situation adds one more point of friction between the US and its allies, at a time when the US could use more solidarity.
plawolf
Lieutenant General
Re: New Generation Fighter
Except you haven't, well not logically or realistically at the very least. Why can't a stealth platform perform every aspect of SEAD/DEAD by itself? Please explain that.
Don't be petulant. If you don't understand something, that is perfectly reasonable. Pretending to know something when you obviously don't for the sake of face saving is pretty bad form.
Again, very basic and irrelevant stuff. What you are describing is stealth penetration attacks typically employed by the B2. Their mission is not to suppress or destroy enemy SAMs and radars but to evade them and catch the enemy completely unawares when they don't expect an attack.
Stealth allows you to bypass the need to perform SEAD/DEAD missions before you can strike at high value targets deep in enemy territory. That is a huge advantage, not a limitation as you seem to somehow think.
I would also drop the childish petulance asap if I were you. The majority of people here and certainly the mods do not look kindly on childish insults and name calling.
Here's a question you seem to have completely forgot to ask yourself when you wrote that. How the hell is the enemy supposed to know that there isn't anything there if they don't turn on their radars to have a look see? With the radar off, how is the enemy supposed to know if its 4th gen or 5th gen or no fighters up there?
Also, if the enemy has turned off all their radars, then thats SEAD done and dusted without you even to have to do anything.
You try to act all knowing and superior, but you make the most ridiculously basic errors and oversights that one cannot help but wonder whether you have the first clue what you are talking about.
Maybe its my fault in confusing you by lumping SEAD and DEAD together, since you can't seem to be able to easily distinguish the two.
There is a wealth of open source material readily available on both those topics, and I would advise you to do at least some basic reading on both before making further illogical claims.
Until you can demonstrate that you at least have a basic grasp of the subject matter, I see no point in wasting any more time with you.
Believe what you want, but your arguments are far from adequate to convince anyone with even a casual understanding of the subject.
Except you haven't, well not logically or realistically at the very least. Why can't a stealth platform perform every aspect of SEAD/DEAD by itself? Please explain that.
Don't be petulant. If you don't understand something, that is perfectly reasonable. Pretending to know something when you obviously don't for the sake of face saving is pretty bad form.
Again, very basic and irrelevant stuff. What you are describing is stealth penetration attacks typically employed by the B2. Their mission is not to suppress or destroy enemy SAMs and radars but to evade them and catch the enemy completely unawares when they don't expect an attack.
Stealth allows you to bypass the need to perform SEAD/DEAD missions before you can strike at high value targets deep in enemy territory. That is a huge advantage, not a limitation as you seem to somehow think.
I would also drop the childish petulance asap if I were you. The majority of people here and certainly the mods do not look kindly on childish insults and name calling.
Here's a question you seem to have completely forgot to ask yourself when you wrote that. How the hell is the enemy supposed to know that there isn't anything there if they don't turn on their radars to have a look see? With the radar off, how is the enemy supposed to know if its 4th gen or 5th gen or no fighters up there?
Also, if the enemy has turned off all their radars, then thats SEAD done and dusted without you even to have to do anything.
You try to act all knowing and superior, but you make the most ridiculously basic errors and oversights that one cannot help but wonder whether you have the first clue what you are talking about.
Maybe its my fault in confusing you by lumping SEAD and DEAD together, since you can't seem to be able to easily distinguish the two.
There is a wealth of open source material readily available on both those topics, and I would advise you to do at least some basic reading on both before making further illogical claims.
Until you can demonstrate that you at least have a basic grasp of the subject matter, I see no point in wasting any more time with you.
Believe what you want, but your arguments are far from adequate to convince anyone with even a casual understanding of the subject.
bladerunner
Banned Idiot
Re: New Generation Fighter
Hey , its even got a mouse
Hey , its even got a mouse
Roger604
Senior Member
Re: New Generation Fighter
Neighboring Asian countries should back off from whatever territorial disputes they have with China right away. Taiwan should immediately begin serious negotiation on Hong Kong-style reunification. The longer they delay this, the greater the ultimate retribution will be.
Uncle Sam can no longer protect them against China. An ancient civilization-state and once the most powerful in the world for millenia, China has finally stood up and is ready to remake the neighborhood in its own image once again.
Exactly! And all in a massive rolling of punches that includes the deployment of DF-21D ASBM and testing SLBM off the coast of California.
Neighboring Asian countries should back off from whatever territorial disputes they have with China right away. Taiwan should immediately begin serious negotiation on Hong Kong-style reunification. The longer they delay this, the greater the ultimate retribution will be.
Uncle Sam can no longer protect them against China. An ancient civilization-state and once the most powerful in the world for millenia, China has finally stood up and is ready to remake the neighborhood in its own image once again.
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