Next Generation DDG and FFG thread (after 055, 052D, 054B)

ACuriousPLAFan

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
I would agree before, but AFAIK 052D is now said to be able to be upgraded with shaft-based generators that coupled with CGT-30 can provide probably enough extra power for an MLU with new radars and DEW.

The only recent information suggesting such a capability upgrade comes from SOYO less than 3 months ago (that the technology is likely almost ready to be deployed):

soyoshaftdrivengenerator.png

However, we have no idea how much additional power the shaft-based generators can provide if/once they are installed on the shaft systems on the 052D DDGs.

Also, I need to clarify that even if/once the (newer) 052D DDGs are fitted/retrofitted with the shaft-based generators, the CGT30s themselves are not involved in power generation on the ships, as none of the 052Ds have IEPS. The current main power generation on the 052Ds comes from the smaller onboard diesel generators (of which the overall capacity is said to only reach about 7 MW).
 
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AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
It’s not clear to me that lasers will be substitutive rather than additive to current close range defenses. There might also be a need for microwave kill weapons as standard equipment.

It should be substitutive. A 600kW laser would be far more effective and lower cost than any CIWS or HHQ-10.
And microwave kill systems would operate and be mounted similarly to a laser system?

You have to consider what kinds of onboard capabilities you’ll need for future threats and how that shapes fleet doctrine, for example if the counter threat capabilities have to cover multiple different vectors of hypersonic attack as well as large volume drone/missile swarms. In those scenarios the standard destroyer capabilities of today might be the bare minimum for a frigate role, and on the high end you’ll need something a lot more capable than current flagship cruisers.

I'm not against a 18-20k tonne ship. As I noted, additional BMD capability would be required for incoming maneuvering hypersonic missiles. And I think in the future, the Chinese Navy will want to put even larger offensive missiles on its ships as they go beyond the Second Island Chain.

On a large volume of incoming drone/missile swarms, this requires a different set of systems. Lowish-cost interceptors like Coyote are an option, but lasers or microwaves would be a better option. And if you already have a 600 kW laser or a microwave system (designed for cruise missiles), it will also work for incoming drone/missile swarms.

Also, when you're referring to flagship cruisers, does the Chinese Navy have a requirement for ships to have command facilities for Admirals and their staffs to command a fleet? My understanding is that this would be located on a carrier anyway, and then it's just small SAGs which don't really need an Admiral in command.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
The only recent information suggesting such a capability upgrade comes from SOYO less than 3 months ago (that the technology is likely almost ready to be deployed):

View attachment 175389

However, we have no idea how much additional power the shaft-based generators can provide if/once they are installed on the shaft systems on the 052D DDGs.

Also, I need to clarify that even if/once the (newer) 052D DDGs are fitted/retrofitted with the shaft-based generators, the CGT30s themselves are not involved in power generation on the ships, as none of the 052Ds have IEPS. The current main power generation on the 052Ds comes from the smaller onboard diesel generators (of which the overall capacity is said to only reach about 7 MW).

Remember that the US Navy has effectively given up on point-defence systems on Destroyers that use high-power lasers or microwaves.

We're likely to see only a handful of Trump battleships from 2035-2045, along with continuing production of Arleigh Burkes.
And there's no way the Arleigh Burkes can support lasers. They might as well design and build a new class (aka. DDGX) to support lasers instead of modifying the Burke again.

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In comparison, presumably China would continue to build 4 destroyers per year and if they all switch to the Type-055 (or better), then that is another 40 within 10 years.
That would mean 56 which should be able to have lasers easily retrofitted, and they will be the frontline units.

So you could just leave the 45 Type-052C/D without a laser retrofit, have them operate as 2nd line destroyers mainly, and let them retire naturally after 30 years.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
However, we have no idea how much additional power the shaft-based generators can provide if/once they are installed on the shaft systems on the 052D DDGs.

Also, I need to clarify that even if/once the (newer) 052D DDGs are fitted/retrofitted with the shaft-based generators, the CGT30s themselves are not involved in power generation on the ships, as none of the 052Ds have IEPS. The current main power generation on the 052Ds comes from the smaller onboard diesel generators (of which the overall capacity is said to only reach about 7 MW).

Well, the QC-280 are rated at 28MW and the CGT-30 are rated at 33MW.

If there is a retrofit, then there is an additional 10MW available. If we assume 40% efficiency for shaft-based generators, that would mean an extra 4MW of electricity, which is just enough to power two 600kW lasers.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
It should be substitutive. A 600kW laser would be far more effective and lower cost than any CIWS or HHQ-10.
And microwave kill systems would operate and be mounted similarly to a laser system?
I do not think we can say with such certainty that it will be substitutive. Lasers still have range limits and challenges with environmental conditions. We also do not know how effectively lasers can handle large swarm engagements. Microwave kill systems need their own arrays and thus dedicated power.
 

ACuriousPLAFan

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
It should be substitutive. A 600kW laser would be far more effective and lower cost than any CIWS or HHQ-10.
And microwave kill systems would operate and be mounted similarly to a laser system?

Nope. Laser (and microwave) CIWS are not silver bullets.

While lasers can get pretty powerful, they are also undeniably huge power guzzlers.

In addition, subsonic cruise missiles and drone swarms aren't the only threats that could potentially get past interception efforts at long and medium ranges. Try figure out how much time is needed to not just disable the sensors on each of those supersonic, let alone hypersonic missiles (as higher speeds typically mean better heat shielding features on them), let alone dealing with multiple of them at once.

Furthermore, there're also range and environmental conditions that can be detrimental to the effectiveness of laser-based CIWS systems as mentioned by @latenlazy above.

This is why hard-kill options are still crucial as additional options for last-line defense. In fact, both the DEW-type and hard-kill type CIWS should complement each other and coexist on warships, going forward.

Remember that the US Navy has effectively given up on point-defence systems on Destroyers that use high-power lasers or microwaves.

Says who?

Well, the QC-280 are rated at 28MW and the CGT-30 are rated at 33MW.

There are no QC-280 engines in service on any PLAN warships today. In fact, there are only the CGT-25M engines in service on PLAN DDGs today, not QC-280.

If there is a retrofit, then there is an additional 10MW available. If we assume 40% efficiency for shaft-based generators, that would mean an extra 4MW of electricity, which is just enough to power two 600kW lasers.

Those values are based on what?
 
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Tomboy

Captain
Registered Member
View attachment 175389
Also, I need to clarify that even if/once the (newer) 052D DDGs are fitted/retrofitted with the shaft-based generators, the CGT30s themselves are not involved in power generation on the ships, as none of the 052Ds have IEPS. The current main power generation on the 052Ds comes from the smaller onboard diesel generators (of which the overall capacity is said to only reach about 7 MW).
Drive shaft generator should be able to directly take power (Implied to be possibly quite a significant amount) from the drivetrain which in this case includes the gas turbines at the expense of some cruise speed. It doesn't really have something to do with whether a ship is IEP or not, in fact it is marketed as a solution for more generator capacity for non IEP ships.

With new CGT-30s installed, 052D post MLU could possibly sustain similar if not higher top and cruise speed as today with CGT-25Ms even when accounting into power siphoned off from the shaft generators.

From that post, SOYO seems reasonably confident that this could be the solution to 052D's low installed generator capacity and open up more upgrade path and potential in the future.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Nope. Laser (and microwave) CIWS are not silver bullets.

Yes, lasers aren't silver bullets, but I think they are way better than Gun CIWS or HHQ-10.

Note that each HHQ-10 only has 24 SAMs and a 20mm Phalanx only has rounds for 20 engagements, and the ammunition is a lot more expensive than a laser.

While lasers can get pretty powerful, they are also undeniably huge power guzzlers.

A 600kW laser would have a total power draw of about 2MW. The Arleigh Burkes have progressively upgraded their electricity generation from 7.5MW to 12MW and is maxxed out.

Then look at how the Type-055 has 30MW of electricity generation, plus 112MW of gas turbines
Also consider how an IEPS solution for a Type-055 would have a minimum of 80MWe available, and it would be straightforward to divert 4MW of that electricity for a few minutes of laser operations for an unnoticeable decrease in maximum speed.

Lasers are only considered huge electricity guzzlers if the underlying ship hasn't been designed for it.
And for warships, propulsion makes up the vast majority of power generation on the ship.

In addition, subsonic cruise missiles and drone swarms aren't the only threats that could potentially get past interception efforts at long and medium ranges. Try figure out how much time is needed to not just disable the sensors on each of those supersonic, let alone hypersonic missiles (as higher speeds typically mean better heat shielding features on them), let alone dealing with multiple of them at once.

For incoming supersonic or hypersonic missiles, these are by definition going to be expensive and worth using long-range SAMs to defend against. Resorting to any sort of CIWS, whether gun, laser or HHQ-10, is going to be a last ditch effort for these sorts of incoming missiles.

As for heat shielding on hypersonic/supersonic missiles, irrespective of the sort of CIWS, the missile is going so fast that the ship would get hit anyway.


Furthermore, there're also range and environmental conditions that can be detrimental to the effectiveness of laser-based CIWS systems as mentioned by @latenlazy above.

This is why hard-kill options are still crucial as additional options for last-line defense. In fact, both the DEW-type and hard-kill type CIWS should complement each other and coexist on warships, going forward.

My view is that a 20/30mm CIWS or HHQ-10 isn't going to do much against a supersonic/hypersonic missile at such close ranges. So you might as go with lasers for last ditch point-defence, even if there is environmental degradation. My view is that for hard-kill CIWS, they should use guided projectiles from the main gun.

The OTO Melera 76mm gun can fire 120 guided projectiles (costing $20K) per minute, with a range of 8km and could be firing right until a missile reaches the ship. Presumably a larger 100/130mm gun would have more range and be more effective.




Says who?

They really need a new hull (the DDGX) to incorporate laser based weapons, as the Arleigh Burkes have been completely maxxed out. But the DDGX has been cancelled to get a handful Trump battleships starting in 10 year's time, and they're just going to continue building 2 Burkes per year. So where are these American lasers going to be placed?

There are no QC-280 engines in service on any PLAN warships today. In fact, there are only the CGT-25M engines in service on PLAN DDGs today, not QC-280.
Those values are based on what?

Given that the CGT-25M and QC-280 have the same power output (and indeed are interchangeable), it doesn't change the calaculation.
Given a Type-052D has 2 gas turbines and a retrofit with the CGT30s means there is now 10MW of extra output, at 40% efficiency, that implies 4MW of electricity. That means two 600kW lasers (4MW total draw for both as per US Navy) can be comfortably accommodated.
 
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jospence

New Member
Registered Member
Remember that the US Navy has effectively given up on point-defence systems on Destroyers that use high-power lasers or microwaves.

We're likely to see only a handful of Trump battleships from 2035-2045, along with continuing production of Arleigh Burkes.
And there's no way the Arleigh Burkes can support lasers. They might as well design and build a new class (aka. DDGX) to support lasers instead of modifying the Burke again.

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In comparison, presumably China would continue to build 4 destroyers per year and if they all switch to the Type-055 (or better), then that is another 40 within 10 years.
That would mean 56 which should be able to have lasers easily retrofitted, and they will be the frontline units.

So you could just leave the 45 Type-052C/D without a laser retrofit, have them operate as 2nd line destroyers mainly, and let them retire naturally after 30 years.
This might be slightly outside of the discussion, but I think it's important to remember that just because a navy or group of navies have decided to go one way doctrinally does not mean it's the right decision. Many modern navies are heavily lacking in redundancy on individual ships, particularly defensive measures like lasers and CIWIS. Many ships are built on the ideal that everything is working, rather than the presumption that things will break down in combat frequently.

This is a lesson which has had to be relearned several times throughout centuries of naval warfare.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
This might be slightly outside of the discussion, but I think it's important to remember that just because a navy or group of navies have decided to go one way doctrinally does not mean it's the right decision. Many modern navies are heavily lacking in redundancy on individual ships, particularly defensive measures like lasers and CIWIS. Many ships are built on the ideal that everything is working, rather than the presumption that things will break down in combat frequently.

This is a lesson which has had to be relearned several times throughout centuries of naval warfare.

US Navy writing is still that lasers are important.

It's just that the Trump battleships (which are expected to have lasers) have sucked the funding and personnel required to develop the DDGX.

The DDGX is supposed to be able to carry CPS and lasers (just like the Trump Battleships), but now the DDGX is cancelled, and they're planning on continuing with 2 Arleigh Burkes per year.

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On point defence redundancy, pretty much all Frigates and Destroyers have 3 systems comprising a combination of:

a) 20mm-30mm Gun
b) 76mm-155mm Main Gun
c) SeaRam/HHQ-10 SAM

My view is that a 600kW laser would be better than Items a and b.
But having said that, the Dragonfire 50kW laser is costing $160 Mn each, and a 600kW laser would be more expensive.

Given that a Type-054B is less than $500? Million, you could only justify a single such laser installation.
A Type-055 costs about $1? Billion these days? So you could probably justify 2 such lasers in this example.

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Due to the cost of lasers, it might well be that Frigates and Destroyers only end up with a single laser installation.
 
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