Ask anything Thread

[Squadson]

Is there any credible source regarding the range of the HHQ-9B air defense system? At the 2023 Langkawi International Maritime and Aerospace Exhibition, the Chinese Navy’s Type 052D destroyer (hull 165, Zhanjiang) reportedly unveiled that its shipborne vertical launch system, with a total of 64 VLS cells, can carry surface-to-air missiles with a range of up to 200 km. However, at the Zhuhai Airshow, the land-based HQ-9B was reported to have a range of 260 km. Which of these figures is accurate? What is the actual range of HHQ-9B range?

 

[_killuminati_]

What radar is used on the Z-18J? Are there any specs available?

 

[PhotonVish]

Hey, why plan or for say usn dont desire to builed towed uvls boats?? Missiles can not be loaded in ocean in realistic time so why not towed boats with connection point able to launch from host ship ?

In this way, let say if a host ship is hit. The towed one still csn be recoved and joined to others

In my opinion, a ship should be sensors plus countermeasures + limited offense and good amount of defence (but not high) and obv crew requirements

And then a universal adapters should be made which can be attached to a ship to be used to towed ubls ships

It will save cost in peace time as less missiles and smaller ships to be fielded in seas and in war time it can reduce risk of lots of missiles going waste just because a ship is hit(specially considereding how good antiship have become)

 

[FriedRiceNSpice]

Hey, why plan or for say usn dont desire to builed towed uvls boats?? Missiles can not be loaded in ocean in realistic time so why not towed boats with connection point able to launch from host ship ?

In this way, let say if a host ship is hit. The towed one still csn be recoved and joined to others

In my opinion, a ship should be sensors plus countermeasures + limited offense and good amount of defence (but not high) and obv crew requirements

And then a universal adapters should be made which can be attached to a ship to be used to towed ubls ships

It will save cost in peace time as less missiles and smaller ships to be fielded in seas and in war time it can reduce risk of lots of missiles going waste just because a ship is hit(specially considereding how good antiship have become)

Why make it so complicated with towing and adapters? Just build unmanned 4000-6000t arsenal ships.

 

[PhotonVish]

Why make it so complicated with towing and adapters? Just build unmanned 4000-6000t arsenal ships.

Well, in that case u have to add sensors and sensors processing units and engines. Very costly

U can definitely have some unmanned system but they are in completely different domain and price vs towed uvls ships

Towed uvls ships offers way less cost and distribute weapons hence risk mitigation and obv less cost to make and operate host ships

 

[ACuriousPLAFan]

Hey, why plan or for say usn dont desire to builed towed uvls boats?? Missiles can not be loaded in ocean in realistic time so why not towed boats with connection point able to launch from host ship ?

In this way, let say if a host ship is hit. The towed one still csn be recoved and joined to others

In my opinion, a ship should be sensors plus countermeasures + limited offense and good amount of defence (but not high) and obv crew requirements

And then a universal adapters should be made which can be attached to a ship to be used to towed ubls ships

It will save cost in peace time as less missiles and smaller ships to be fielded in seas and in war time it can reduce risk of lots of missiles going waste just because a ship is hit(specially considereding how good antiship have become)

Well, in that case u have to add sensors and sensors processing units and engines. Very costly

U can definitely have some unmanned system but they are in completely different domain and price vs towed uvls ships

Towed uvls ships offers way less cost and distribute weapons hence risk mitigation and obv less cost to make and operate host ships

#1 - Ocean-going tugboats (which include towing) only have maximum speeds of about 12-15 knots, and that can only be achieved during "free running" (i.e. not towing anything else). When towing other ships or barges, their speeds drop dramatically to just 4-9 knots.

How would you expect these "towed VLS boats" that are sailing at just 4-9 knots to keep up with the proper warships (FFGs, DDGs, LPDs, LHDs, CVs etc) during normal/cruising conditions at speeds of high-10s to 20s of knots, let alone during combat/emergency situations where the warships' speeds can go up to the high-20s and low-30s of knots?

#2 - Ocean-going tugboats aren't exactly expensive, especially when compared to proper warships. More often than not, these tugboats usually cost around 5-10 times less than proper warships, if not cheaper.

On the other hand, the VLS, its associated systems, and the missiles that are loaded inside them are actually the ones that do cost fortunes, although certainly not as much as the radar and sensor suites and computer systems.

#3 - Since arsenal ships are meant to be slave/wingman ships to the proper warships (FFGs, DDGs, CGs), they don't need to be equipped with all those complex and advanced radar and sensor suites typically found on proper warships, as all the necessary work of detection, targetting and guidance are already performed by the proper warships that are actually equipped with those systems. The primary tasks for these slave/wingman ships are to follow + be controlled by the proper warships to which they are attached/assigned + act as their external missile racks.

Hence, their main equipment would be the VLS cells, some datalink systems (for networking with the proper warships), and some self-defense weaponry (gun-based and rocket-based CIWS) only. Sure, these slave/wingman ships would require their own propulsion systems, but those aren't going to be prohibitively expensive.

In the meantime, as for radar and sensor suites - We've already seen the Zhong Da 79 container ship equipped with some of the radar and sensor suites that are also found on the PLAN FFGs and DDGs:




As a matter of fact, weaponized container ships like the Zhong Da 79 are meant to be affordable ad-hoc solutions for China to extend its SAM coverage farther into the sea (mainly in the 1IC context) by converting them into floating SAM platforms (and potentially even UAV launchers in certain configurations), meaning that they (including the radar and sensor suites) aren't going to become very/too cost-prohibitive for wide-scale adoption and deployment.

Therefore, going back to the slave/wingman ships - We would expect them to have similar radar and sensor suites' loadouts as Zhong Da 79 (if not degraded further to reduce cost), and still making them viable platforms for increasing the VLS numbers that can be made available to the PLAN for high-seas combat operations while having none of the disadvantages associated with the "towed VLS boats".

 

[PhotonVish]

#1 - Ocean-going tugboats (which include towing) only have maximum speeds of about 12-15 knots, and that can only be achieved during "free running" (i.e. not towing anything else). When towing other ships or barges, their speeds drop dramatically to just 4-9 knots.

How would you expect these "towed VLS boats" that are sailing at just 4-9 knots to keep up with the proper warships (FFGs, DDGs, LPDs, LHDs, CVs etc) during normal/cruising conditions at speeds of high-10s to 20s of knots, let alone during combat/emergency situations where the warships' speeds can go up to the high-20s and low-30s of knots?

#2 - Ocean-going tugboats aren't exactly expensive, especially when compared to proper warships. More often than not, these tugboats usually cost around 5-10 times less than proper warships, if not cheaper.

On the other hand, the VLS, its associated systems, and the missiles that are loaded inside them are actually the ones that do cost fortunes, although certainly not as much as the radar and sensor suites and computer systems.

#3 - Since arsenal ships are meant to be slave/wingman ships to the proper warships (FFGs, DDGs, CGs), they don't need to be equipped with all those complex and advanced radar and sensor suites typically found on proper warships, as all the necessary work of detection, targetting and guidance are already performed by the proper warships that are actually equipped with those systems. The primary tasks for these slave/wingman ships are to follow + be controlled by the proper warships to which they are attached/assigned + act as their external missile racks.

Hence, their main equipment would be the VLS cells, some datalink systems (for networking with the proper warships), and some self-defense weaponry (gun-based and rocket-based CIWS) only. Sure, these slave/wingman ships would require their own propulsion systems, but those aren't going to be prohibitively expensive.

In the meantime, as for radar and sensor suites - We've already seen the Zhong Da 79 container ship equipped with some of the radar and sensor suites that are also found on the PLAN FFGs and DDGs:

View attachment 172114
View attachment 172115

As a matter of fact, weaponized container ships like the Zhong Da 79 are meant to be affordable ad-hoc solutions for China to extend its SAM coverage farther into the sea (mainly in the 1IC context) by converting them into floating SAM platforms (and potentially even UAV launchers in certain configurations), meaning that they (including the radar and sensor suites) aren't going to become very/too cost-prohibitive for wide-scale adoption and deployment.

Therefore, going back to the slave/wingman ships - We would expect them to have similar radar and sensor suites' loadouts as Zhong Da 79 (if not degraded further to reduce cost), and still making them viable platforms for increasing the VLS numbers that can be made available to the PLAN for high-seas combat operations while having none of the disadvantages associated with the "towed VLS boats".

U replied to wrong person.

I told said same that uvls ships dont need sensors or any other things other than vls and may be a small diesal engine just for small meanures during coupling phase to host ship

And when i said that these need to be towed by towing ships ? I said these need to be towed by warships but(many things ,read my prev comment to understand what design changes i proposed in such next gen ships)

And they dont need coupling to fire, that can be done via datalink too. I just saud coupling just for redundancy as its inexpensive comapred to data link and this type of slave ships will already be needed to be towed by hodt to a normal wired firing solution is not expensive)also jam proof of any ew attack disrupting communication

But data link can be given to be used as multiple host , connect to multiple ships via data link and then physically connected to a single ship via coupling point

 

[ACuriousPLAFan]

U replied to wrong person.

I told said same that uvls ships dont need sensors or any other things other than vls and may be a small diesal engine just for small meanures during coupling phase to host ship

And when i said that these need to be towed by towing ships ? I said these need to be towed by warships but(many things ,read my prev comment to understand what design changes i proposed in such next gen ships)

And they dont need coupling to fire, that can be done via datalink too. I just saud coupling just for redundancy as its inexpensive comapred to data link and this type of slave ships will already be needed to be towed by hodt to a normal wired firing solution is not expensive)also jam proof of any ew attack disrupting communication

But data link can be given to be used as multiple host , connect to multiple ships via data link and then physically connected to a single ship via coupling point

#1 - Yes, I am replying to the right person, which is you.

#2 - If that "towed VLS ship" doesn't need any sensors, then it might as well be an unpowered barge that cannot move itself (contrary to your suggestion of having a small diesel engine, as any unmanned ship very much still requires sensors for navigation and maneuvering).

#3 - Having the "towed VLS ship" being towed by a proper warship is actually a much worse idea than getting towed by tugboats (which is already a very bad idea in the first place), as warships are meant to be agile and be able to conduct evasive maneuvers freely, and they aren't meant to tow other ships or barges in the first place.

Besides, the same laws of physics apply to warships towing anything as they are applied to tugboats, i.e., their speeds would drop dramatically, which makes them much more vulnerable to enemy fire, especially during rough sea conditions and/or during combat/emergency situations. In addition, their maneuverability would actually be massively hampered, which is why no proper warships would ever do that except under exceptional circumstances (towing another warship with total engine failure back to base in case there are no friendly towboats nearby).

#4 - Do you even understand what "coupling" generally means in this context? I meant the same thing here with networking between proper warships and their assigned slave/wingman ships.

Speaking of EW interference/jamming - If they are such major factors, then why is everyone else developing and deploying drone ships/boats and unmanned loyal wingman fighters right now? They certainly do not require any physical wires to connect between manned units and unmanned units for them to work when facing EW interference/jamming.

If anything, physical wires actually make things more dangerous, especially during rough sea conditions and/or during drastic maneuvers, since the wires can actually snap and break, which renders the whole point useless. This is also why wireless datalinking and networking are always the superior option here, since they certainly aren't as constrained in terms of distance.

 

[lcloo]

If the cost is the main concern, the solution has been around for decades. Put containerized VLS system on a commercial spec barge (motorized or unpowered), you get a new barge for less than $500,000, which can carry missiles and relevant subsystems that may cost up to a few hundred million dollars.

Or you go for a military spec like the suspected trimaran "arsenal" ship (submersible/submarine??) in China, the cost of which probably is not the priority.

Cheap commercial spec option, expendable.



Military spec "arsenal" ship option, designed for stealth and survival. (diagram based on unconfirm design details).

 

[PhotonVish]

#1 - Yes, I am replying to the right person, which is you.

#2 - If that "towed VLS ship" doesn't need any sensors, then it might as well be an unpowered barge that cannot move itself (contrary to your suggestion of having a small diesel engine, as any unmanned ship very much still requires sensors for navigation and maneuvering).

#3 - Having the "towed VLS ship" being towed by a proper warship is actually a much worse idea than getting towed by tugboats (which is already a very bad idea in the first place), as warships are meant to be agile and be able to conduct evasive maneuvers freely, and they aren't meant to tow other ships or barges in the first place.

Besides, the same laws of physics apply to warships towing anything as they are applied to tugboats, i.e., their speeds would drop dramatically, which makes them much more vulnerable to enemy fire, especially during rough sea conditions and/or during combat/emergency situations. In addition, their maneuverability would actually be massively hampered, which is why no proper warships would ever do that except under exceptional circumstances (towing another warship with total engine failure back to base in case there are no friendly towboats nearby).

#4 - Do you even understand what "coupling" generally means in this context? I meant the same thing here with networking between proper warships and their assigned slave/wingman ships.

Speaking of EW interference/jamming - If they are such major factors, then why is everyone else developing and deploying drone ships/boats and unmanned loyal wingman fighters right now? They certainly do not require any physical wires to connect between manned units and unmanned units for them to work when facing EW interference/jamming.

If anything, physical wires actually make things more dangerous, especially during rough sea conditions and/or during drastic maneuvers, since the wires can actually snap and break, which renders the whole point useless. This is also why wireless datalinking and networking are always the superior option here, since they certainly aren't as constrained in terms of distance.

Okh , u are hell bent on proving youself right , u applied your all brain on proving that i am wrong and u are right insted of applying wheatger i am right or wrong

And u know ? Whats the best thing about americans defence nerds ?

They dont have superriority complex even though united state is most powerful militry

U can not make china most powerful without learning from the people of other community/race.


Byy, i had enough of talking to a "theoratical 2nd most powerful country's defence nerd"