Future PLAAF fleet procurement and composition

GTI

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The reason why keeping 4.5th gens around is a bad idea (if they have the industry and funds to replace them with 5th gens or beyond), is because they are basically only viable for the bomb truck role or doing homeland air patrol roles. But those roles are only really viable if they are capable of attaining air superiority to begin with in the region, and attaining air superiority in the region is both the hardest part and also the part where having excessive overmatch is most sensible if not desirable.
It’s a system of systems. Not only would there be other roles for 4.5 gens, there’s nothing wrong with homeland air patrols. Totally agree about the bomb truck role though.

They would fill roles, in the absence / agnostic of air superiority, where it doesn’t matter that you’re radar observable. Obviously without running them too close to or over their airframe lives, there’d be no need.

E.g.:

- Homeland air patrol: you’re backed by your entire infrastructure (ground radar, AEW&Cs) and you’re basically a tripwire — If you’re blown up, you’re being invaded, otherwise they can all other aspects of the role sufficiently.

- Anti-drone / UAV ops deep behind your lines. If you don’t have air superiority at your rear, then you’ve got bigger problems. However, drones would still be a nuisance and you want something with cheaper maintenance hours and/or airframe life per hour to help with the job.

- AEW&Cs escort and long range missileer. The AEW&Cs is already visible and frequently blasting out EM emissions, and would be operating in a system of systems that includes 5th and 6th gens in more forward positions, so it would be suitable for escorting something further back, that also happens to sport your best detection capabilities. Plus, no PLAAF fighter has a radar with a detection range exceeding the PL-17’s max purported range, and I think it’s more than a safe assumption to say that the PLA is looking into even longer range AAMs, including air-breathing scramjets (especially if those CJ-1000 and other rumours have any truth to them).
 

Blitzo

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It’s a system of systems. Not only would there be other roles for 4.5 gens, there’s nothing wrong with homeland air patrols. Totally agree about the bomb truck role though.

They would fill roles, in the absence / agnostic of air superiority, where it doesn’t matter that you’re radar observable. Obviously without running them too close to or over their airframe lives, there’d be no need.

E.g.:

- Homeland air patrol: you’re backed by your entire infrastructure (ground radar, AEW&Cs) and you’re basically a tripwire — If you’re blown up, you’re being invaded, otherwise they can all other aspects of the role sufficiently.

- Anti-drone / UAV ops deep behind your lines. If you don’t have air superiority at your rear, then you’ve got bigger problems. However, drones would still be a nuisance and you want something with cheaper maintenance hours and/or airframe life per hour to help with the job.

- AEW&Cs escort and long range missileer. The AEW&Cs is already visible and frequently blasting out EM emissions, and would be operating in a system of systems that includes 5th and 6th gens in more forward positions, so it would be suitable for escorting something further back, that also happens to sport your best detection capabilities. Plus, no PLAAF fighter has a radar with a detection range exceeding the PL-17’s max purported range, and I think it’s more than a safe assumption to say that the PLA is looking into even longer range AAMs, including air-breathing scramjets (especially if those CJ-1000 and other rumours have any truth to them).

I appreciate that everything is of course a system of systems, but we are talking about a period of time in which the PRC:
- can afford replacement of 4.5th gens with 5th gens (or newer) aircraft
- have the industrial capacity to replace 4.5th gens with 5th gens (or newer) aircraft
- are still paying personnel (maintenance crew, pilots) to be active anyway, regardless of whether they are operating 4.5th gen aircraft in the certain remaining units or whether they are operating 5th gen aircraft in those units
- will have had produced the last 4.5th gen aircraft for the air force about a decade into the past


The problem is that people are trying to come up with ways to justify the continuing role of 4.5th gen aircraft into the future, which sure, I can agree there are certain missions it can do like homeland air patrol, escorting AEWC, anti-drone operations.

However, continuing to operate 4.5th generation aircraft comes with an opportunity cost:
- 5th generation aircraft will be able to do all of those aforementioned 4.5th gen roles (5th gen can carry external weapons or fuel tanks after all in missions where RCS is less important), and still also be relevant in a high end fight; heck if you're 5th gen you can even jettison stores and EFTs in your homeland patrol/drone defense/AEW&C escort role and then transition to a more "forward" position as needed in a single sortie.
- in a system of systems battle, the PLA will of course be more formidable with an even greater fleet of 5th generation aircraft, rather than retaining a fraction of their fleet as 4.5th gen.
- 5th generation aircraft will have been produced in far larger numbers by the era we're talking about (2035) and likely have a far more robust logistics and spare parts lineup, such that it is very possible that 5th gen aircraft of that era may have greater availability and maintainability than 4.5th generation aircraft.
- you are still paying for the same air crew and pilots and other personnel and basing, regardless of whether your unit operates 4.5th gen or 5th gen aircraft, so why pay your crew and pilots to operate a far inferior aircraft?


The only reasons I could see in which it would make sense to keep 4.5th generation aircraft in service circa 2035 would be:
- if they did not have the funds or industrial capacity to procure or produce 5th gen (or better) aircraft to replace them
- if there were far more pressing needs in the air domain which would bring forth even higher yield capability gains
- if they want to actively expand their manned fighter fleet and are using 4.5th gen aircraft as placeholders to keep units active while increasing the total size of the fighter force


But if the above criteria are not relevant, then it doesn't make sense to retain 4.5th gens by 2035.
Just because there are certain roles that 4.5th gens can hold onto to remain partially relevant, and just because warfare is a system of systems fight, doesn't mean that keeping 4.5th gens around is the correct decision if they have means to replace them with 5th gens.

Because you would far prefer to have assets that can be relevant for the high end roles as well as lower end roles, and to augment the overall robustness and durability of your system of systems by improving the average capability and quality of your individual systems (manned fighter aircraft) as well.



I also want to recommend people remember that in the contest for air superiority, if you have the means to attain an imbalance of capability in your favour, then it is important to exercise it.
Air superiority is one of the heights of warfighting -- it is probably one of the few domains where if you can afford laughable, vastly gratuitous overkill, then it is criminal negligence to not procure it, as air superiority will be the factor which enables so many other key capabilities and warfighting pursuits.
 
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ACuriousPLAFan

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To make the discussion more concise:

- Are 5th-gen fighters capable of doing everything that the 4th-gen (and 4.5th-gen) fighters do? Absolutely YES.
- Are 4th-gen (and 4.5th-gen) fighters capable of doing everything that the 5th-gen fighters do? Absolutely NO.

If the procurement, operational, and maintenance costs are such major (if not decisive) factors in fighter jet procurement programs around the world - Then why don't we see the US flying F-4s today? Why don't we see Russia flying MiG-21s today? And despite being a laggard, we certainly didn't see China keeping J-7s in frontline service for quite some years now.

In addition, did people really forget about the UAVs today, and how are they expected to progress and develop into the coming years and decades?
 
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Atomicfrog

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If the procurement, operational, and maintenance costs are such major (if not decisive) factors in fighter jet procurement programs around the world - Then why don't we see the US flying F-104s today? Why don't we see Russia flying MiG-21s today? Why don't we see China flying J-6s today?
I think that 4th-gen (and 4.5th-gen) fighters will still be used until their designated aiframe flight hours are spent. The gap to 5th generation is probably not big enough for most tasks they are doing.

In the cold war we have seen fighter scrapped before aging because of very fast developments. China have done huge steps forward and last batches of J-7 are probably phased out before old ages.
 

ACuriousPLAFan

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I think that 4th-gen (and 4.5th-gen) fighters will still be used until their designated aiframe flight hours are spent. The gap to 5th generation is probably not big enough for most tasks they are doing.

PLAAF top brass:

"Fvck, why didn't you say this earlier?! You could've saved us all tons of fortune and effort, instead of letting us frantically expanding the production of J-20/A/A and J-35A at CAC/SAC to well above 100 units per year (and possibly approaching/around 200 in the coming years), and scaling down/stopping the production of the J-16 and J-10C!! Let alone working on all those ULWFs and UADFs?!"

 
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Atomicfrog

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PLAAF top brass:

"Fvck, why didn't you say this earlier?! You could've saved us all tons of fortune and effort, instead of letting us frantically expanding the production of J-20/A/A and J-35A at CAC/SAC to well above 100 units per year (and possibly approaching/around 200 in the coming years), and scaling down/stopping the production of the J-16 and J-10C!! Let alone working on all those ULWFs and UADFs?!"

A lot to build to replace 4 and 4,5 generations in numbers... how many years before they attain the wanted numbers ? Probably enough to weather fligh time of most of 4 and 4,5 generations.

Why aging the newest fleets for tasks that can be made with these meanwhile ??
 

AndrewS

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- 5th generation aircraft will have been produced in far larger numbers by the era we're talking about (2035) and likely have a far more robust logistics and spare parts lineup, such that it is very possible that 5th gen aircraft of that era may have greater availability and maintainability than 4.5th generation aircraft.

The "solution" would be to retire a portion of the 4.5Gen fleet early and give those aircraft to the remaining units.

- you are still paying for the same air crew and pilots and other personnel and basing, regardless of whether your unit operates 4.5th gen or 5th gen aircraft, so why pay your crew and pilots to operate a far inferior aircraft?

There are 3 assumptions here:

1. That ongoing operating costs are substantial and dominant

With the F-35 for example, it has an initial procurement cost of $100 Million, then another $7+ Million annually for 30 years, which works out as $210 Million.

But with the J-20 cost structure, I think it is more like $80-100 Million for procurement and my guestimate is ~$4 Million annually for 30 years ($120 Million). This difference is mainly due to substantially lower labour costs.

So we can see that for the first 10 years of an aircraft, the initial procurement cost is still the dominant cost factor, when compared to ongoing operating costs. But this difference is a lot more significant in China.


2. An aircraft is only inferior depending on the mission it is used for

If we're talking a situation where there are 2000+ 5th/6th generation aircraft, I do think this is excessive overmatch in the 1IC. In 2033, in terms of 5th Gen aircraft, South Korea might have 100 and Japan another 200 at most. Then add another 200 for the USAF on Day 1. So overall, there is a four-to-one disparity.

I think it would be incredible if opposing fighters (of any sort) were to be operating in the Chinese interior.

So for fighter aircraft based in the interior, for a homeland defence mission, stealth doesn't matter.
And the odds of these aircraft (say J-11BG or J-16) actually being required to contest air superiority in the 1IC is near zero. So there wouldn't be an opportunity cost in retaining the J-11BG or J-16 for homeland defence.

So why goes to the expense of replacing the J-16/J-11BG with a new 5th/6th gen aircraft?

In addition, the existing J-16/J-11B Flanker airframes should also be better than a new build 5th/6th Gen in terms of:
a) payload
b) hardpoints
c) operating costs

3. That 4.5 Gen aircraft have to be manned with pilots

The logical next step is for 4.5 Gen aircraft to be converted to unmanned operation, like we've seen happen elsewhere. This should come at minimal cost, plus ongoing operating costs will drop to near zero as they don't have pilots and barely any flight hours.

In effect, they become "loyal wingmen" and can easily perform in a homeland defence or bomb/missile truck role.
 

Blitzo

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The "solution" would be to retire a portion of the 4.5Gen fleet early and give those aircraft to the remaining units.

What "remaining units"?
The whole point of retiring 4.5th gen aircraft early is if the production capacity and funding for new 5th gens for replace them is available.

There are 3 assumptions here:

1. That ongoing operating costs are substantial and dominant

With the F-35 for example, it has an initial procurement cost of $100 Million, then another $7+ Million annually for 30 years, which works out as $210 Million.

But with the J-20 cost structure, I think it is more like $80-100 Million for procurement and my guestimate is ~$4 Million annually for 30 years ($120 Million). This difference is mainly due to substantially lower labour costs.

So we can see that for the first 10 years of an aircraft, the initial procurement cost is still the dominant cost factor, when compared to ongoing operating costs. But this difference is a lot more significant in China.


2. An aircraft is only inferior depending on the mission it is used for

If we're talking a situation where there are 2000+ 5th/6th generation aircraft, I do think this is excessive overmatch in the 1IC. In 2033, in terms of 5th Gen aircraft, South Korea might have 100 and Japan another 200 at most. Then add another 200 for the USAF on Day 1. So overall, there is a four-to-one disparity.

I think it would be incredible if opposing fighters (of any sort) were to be operating in the Chinese interior.

So for fighter aircraft based in the interior, for a homeland defence mission, stealth doesn't matter.
And the odds of these aircraft (say J-11BG or J-16) actually being required to contest air superiority in the 1IC is near zero. So there wouldn't be an opportunity cost in retaining the J-11BG or J-16 for homeland defence.

So why goes to the expense of replacing the J-16/J-11BG with a new 5th/6th gen aircraft?

In addition, the existing J-16/J-11B Flanker airframes should also be better than a new build 5th/6th Gen in terms of:
a) payload
b) hardpoints
c) operating costs

3. That 4.5 Gen aircraft have to be manned with pilots

The logical next step is for 4.5 Gen aircraft to be converted to unmanned operation, like we've seen happen elsewhere. This should come at minimal cost, plus ongoing operating costs will drop to near zero as they don't have pilots and barely any flight hours.

In effect, they become "loyal wingmen" and can easily perform in a homeland defence or bomb/missile truck role.

I'll address these one by one.

1. Operating costs do not necessarily have to be dominant per se, because obviously procuring 5th gen aircraft over 4.5th gen will have its own upfront costs. What is relevant is that 5th gen aircraft are much more capable than 4.5th gen aircraft, while the human operating costs remain largely unchanged.

2. That just sounds like one is content with operating a significant fraction of the fleet which are incapable of credibly operating outside of PRC airspace, and to be relegated only to either internal policing missions or bomb truck missions. If the finances dictate it, then fine, but why on earth would one want to not have a fighter fleet which is all fully capable of high end combat as well?

3. Unlikely to happen. The work and cost needed to convert manned fighters not designed for UCAV/CCA roles, into UCAV/CCA is going to result in keeping ageing airframes around for longer in a mission they are structurally poorly optimized for. There's a reason why the PLAs CCAs and UADFs exist, and it's because they are purpose built for the role from cost and capability perspectives rather than shoehorning manned fighters into it.


The best thing to do, if they are able to actually procure 5th gens, is for these 4.5th gen aircraft is to be mothballed or potentially sell them to foreign customers.

I really don't understand why people are so interested in keeping past generation fighters around for longer than necessary. In the past when the PLA did so, it was because technology, production capacity, and funding for procurement were all bottlenecks.

But from now into the future, those will not be bottlenecks for tactical fighter aircraft (unless they want to emphasize other domains of air power, which as I previously wrote, is a reasonable case for not replacing 4.5th gen with 5th gen), so why on earth would they want to keep an obsolete, much less capable aircraft around for longer?


A lot to build to replace 4 and 4,5 generations in numbers... how many years before they attain the wanted numbers ? Probably enough to weather fligh time of most of 4 and 4,5 generations.

Why aging the newest fleets for tasks that can be made with these meanwhile ??

See the last few pages of estimated 5th gen production rates between now and into 2030s.

It isn't really that many 4.5th gen aircraft that would be up for replacement by say, 2035, only like 500-600.
About 3 years of production.

They'd be getting replaced a bit ahead of their airframe hours, but that's in exchange for a much much more capable aircraft that is actually able to contribute in a high end air war.
 
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another505

Junior Member
Registered Member
" I really don't understand why people are so interested in keeping past generation fighters around for longer than necessary. In the past when the PLA did so, it was because technology, production capacity, and funding for procurement were all bottlenecks.:

Is simple, Blitzo, we love the flanker too much. to see it gone. We are suffering from success.
 

Nevermore

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Ahem, I'd like to ask: if all the "Flanker" fighters are retired, what aircraft will replace specialized electronic warfare fighters like the J-16D?
 
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