China Flanker Thread III (land based, exclude J-15)

[ougoah]

Beating the F-35 in some mock dogfights, which both sides have engaged in numerous times now, is not exactly anything to write about. The F-35 is indeed an absolute dog compared to basically every 4th gen fighter and every other 5th gen fighter. Even the USAF has tacitly indicated it is not much of a dogfighter. Beating the F-22 though is something noteworthy.

However, it's completely unknown how much the US pilots were pushing and what they were permitted to do/show. Same goes for PLAAF/PLANAF of course but it's pretty silly to draw pilot and aircraft skill/capability conclusions from these.

Everyone knows the Flanker is an absolute beast of a fighter basically F-15 + F-16 + F-14 strengths combined into one platform that looks better than anything flying except Su-57.

 

[Alpine_Lynx]

These photos are purported to be from the 16th Air Brigade training, but interestingly, the third photo shows a J-11 model that has not undergone MAW modification
Source :

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[plawolf]

Beating the F-35 in some mock dogfights, which both sides have engaged in numerous times now, is not exactly anything to write about. The F-35 is indeed an absolute dog compared to basically every 4th gen fighter and every other 5th gen fighter. Even the USAF has tacitly indicated it is not much of a dogfighter. Beating the F-22 though is something noteworthy.

However, it's completely unknown how much the US pilots were pushing and what they were permitted to do/show. Same goes for PLAAF/PLANAF of course but it's pretty silly to draw pilot and aircraft skill/capability conclusions from these.

Everyone knows the Flanker is an absolute beast of a fighter basically F-15 + F-16 + F-14 strengths combined into one platform that looks better than anything flying except Su-57.

The general consensus is that either you do not play at all, or you are playing to prove a point, and holding back to get your arse kicked isn’t that point

Besides, fighter pilots are selected and trained to be highly independent, decisive, dedicated and aggressive. That’s a big part why AoA limiters and automatic aircraft recovery flight systems etc are a common feature in modern combat aircraft, so pilots don’t literally kill themselves chasing a target. So it would be a pretty bad leader to expect them to hold back after you have let them off the leash in the first place.

With how modern air combat is evolving, WVR combat is increasingly irrelevant in real world combat contexts as the fight will be over long before you can get to see the opponent with your mk1 eyeball. As such, I think both sides are going to be more relaxed about letting their respective pilots go all out in such encounters, since that’s basically the only realistic scenario where they would be able to employ their dogfighting skills in real life these days anyways.

But you are right that such encounters don’t offer much in the way of direct evidence on how the two sides might fight for real.

These fights are basically show bouts done purely for bragging rights and moral boosts. It would be wrong to read too much into them in terms of real world combat capabilities, but it would be equally wrong to simply dismiss them as meaningless also.

 

[Deino]

Beating the F-35 in some mock dogfights, which both sides have engaged in numerous times now, is not exactly anything to write about. The F-35 is indeed an absolute dog compared to basically every 4th gen fighter and every other 5th gen fighter. Even the USAF has tacitly indicated it is not much of a dogfighter. Beating the F-22 though is something noteworthy.

However, it's completely unknown how much the US pilots were pushing and what they were permitted to do/show. Same goes for PLAAF/PLANAF of course but it's pretty silly to draw pilot and aircraft skill/capability conclusions from these.

Everyone knows the Flanker is an absolute beast of a fighter basically F-15 + F-16 + F-14 strengths combined into one platform that looks better than anything flying except Su-57.

Calm down! There was no aerial fight, most likely not even a "mock dogfight" since such encounters follow - especially on US side (against what Russians do) - according to strict rules ... so surely no Maverick like actions a la Top Gun style!

 

[Gloire_bb]

Calm down! There was no aerial fight, most likely not even a "mock dogfight" since such encounters follow - especially on US side (against what Russians do) - according to strict rules ... so surely no Maverick like actions a la Top Gun style!

Oh my sweet summer ... senior.
How little idea you have on what US (and all others, since it comes to that) pilots in fact do in international airspace.

 

[siegecrossbow]

The general consensus is that either you do not play at all, or you are playing to prove a point, and holding back to get your arse kicked isn’t that point

Besides, fighter pilots are selected and trained to be highly independent, decisive, dedicated and aggressive. That’s a big part why AoA limiters and automatic aircraft recovery flight systems etc are a common feature in modern combat aircraft, so pilots don’t literally kill themselves chasing a target. So it would be a pretty bad leader to expect them to hold back after you have let them off the leash in the first place.

With how modern air combat is evolving, WVR combat is increasingly irrelevant in real world combat contexts as the fight will be over long before you can get to see the opponent with your mk1 eyeball. As such, I think both sides are going to be more relaxed about letting their respective pilots go all out in such encounters, since that’s basically the only realistic scenario where they would be able to employ their dogfighting skills in real life these days anyways.

But you are right that such encounters don’t offer much in the way of direct evidence on how the two sides might fight for real.

These fights are basically show bouts done purely for bragging rights and moral boosts. It would be wrong to read too much into them in terms of real world combat capabilities, but it would be equally wrong to simply dismiss them as meaningless also.

That’s the point exactly. Real aerial combat will go like May 7th. But the intercepts are still important since it provides demonstrations of BFM, basically how well the pilot knows the fundamentals. If you haven’t even kept up with the fundamentals then how well can you leverage your skills in advanced combat scenarios where you have to worry about data networking and electronic interference?

Besides, let’s not forget how when NATO pilots have the advantage (Rafale pilot in Syria, Raptor pilot in Syria against Russia and Iran) they gloat endlessly about stuff like piloting skill and superior aircraft. I have no doubt that many of those pilots got into the dick measuring contest in the first place because they bought the propaganda that PLAAF is just Temu RuAF in terms of gear and training from FLG/Wanwanese propaganda.

 

[Gloire_bb]

That’s the point exactly. Real aerial combat will go like May 7th.

Real combat can be different, as it is informed by circumstances.
May was specifically type of combat over static border(frontline), without decisive aims, without stealth aircraft, and with one side effectively flying into the ambush.

 

[Blitzo]

Calm down! There was no aerial fight, most likely not even a "mock dogfight" since such encounters follow - especially on US side (against what Russians do) - according to strict rules ... so surely no Maverick like actions a la Top Gun style!

Deino, I actually think these sort of aerial games of chicken do happen in real life and more frequently than we think -- it's just deliberately not reported on often because both sides know if the release information about it they will both walk away looking bad

 

[siegecrossbow]

Calm down! There was no aerial fight, most likely not even a "mock dogfight" since such encounters follow - especially on US side (against what Russians do) - according to strict rules ... so surely no Maverick like actions a la Top Gun style!

China used to lose a lot in these things but as we’ve entered the 2010s and 2020s the balance started tilting heavily in the other direction, so much so that by 2024 we see very professional flying at least from USAF/USN airmen and the gesture is reciprocated.

Here is an example of the French doing this sort of thing.

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F-22 in Syria again against Russian assets.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1903484912235319435

 

[ougoah]

Well the near official confirmation from PLA in recent months (someone can link to those sources again if they have those bookmarked, or correct me in stating they are PLA or PLA adjacent sourced rumours) is that some J-11B (?) pilot who is regarded in the PLAAF as a bit of a mid pilot who also has a tendency for carelessness, "defeated" two different types of US fighters in mock fights with one being a stealth and non F-35 aircraft (who else but F-22).

If a PLAAF mid level pilot who is partial to drinking is able to defeat USAF in mock fights on consecutive occasions - both mock fights in question happened on the same week and during the week that USN lost an F-35 to a failed carrier landing, then it begs the question how a Russian source (may be questionable source) claims that F-22 comfortably smashed Su-35s in mock fights.

In fact we know that F-22 comfortably toyed with Iranian fighters and Russian fighters. Rafale beat Su-35 in mock fights and in trials held in tender competitions by nations evaluating Rafale and Su-35 although those may not be entirely based on flight performance alone.

J-11B is no Su-35 in air combat manoeuvres. The F-22 pilot may not have been pushing his aircraft at all. The whole thing could be misunderstanding and/or misrepresentation. The F-22 may not have defeated Su-35 in WVR mock fights but the Russian source was referring more to how superior the F-22 is to the Su-35 in every other aspect and would never allow a Su-35 the opportunity of WVR fight. Who knows. The claim of that J-11B (or rather that pilot) shining against F-35 and F-22 is backed with some confidence.

Well when China exercised with Thailand and flew J-11A against Gripen C, the J-11As reportedly defeated the Gripen in all WVR dogfight scenarios while losing pretty much all the BVR ones. J-11A may have the most experienced pilots operating them and who is to speak on RTAF pilot skills (maybe they're rubbish), but plenty of circumstantial evidence will point to PLAAF instilling and placing emphasis on WVR skills of its pilots. Training and flight hours are higher than USAF in the modern era. PLAAF also employ combat pilots from all over the world to bolster training and ACM tactic awareness. Plenty of evidence shows us that PLAAF is serious about producing high quality pilots. It isn't outrageous to suggest they have randoms who equal and surpass F-22 pilot in his machine.