Chinese Economics Thread

madhusudan.tim

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I think consumption in China is structurally constrained. The dominant urban model today, dense apartment complexes with shared infrastructure, is efficient but not consumption-expanding. When families live in standardized units with limited private ownership, there is little incentive or need to accumulate durable goods beyond a narrow set.
Detached housing changes that equation entirely. A privately owned house pulls in continuous consumption: HVAC systems, appliances, furniture, tools, landscaping equipment, home electronics, renovation materials, insurance, and maintenance services. It also raises demand for personal vehicles, roads, fuel, utilities, and logistics. Land sales increase. So does local government revenue tied to property, transport, and services. The entire economic surface area expands. Apartments compress demand. Suburbs stretch it. Urban sprawl is often framed as inefficient, but from a consumption and growth perspective, it is powerful. A household with its own land behaves differently than one embedded in a managed complex. Inventory accumulation rises. Replacement cycles shorten. Services diversify.
I know many in China and here dislike the idea of suburbanization. But having a larger private space, actual soil you own, room to modify and expand, creates a sense of autonomy that materially changes behavior. It encourages spending, customization, and long-term investment. That shift would not just alter housing patterns. It would reshape consumption itself.
 

fishrubber99

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I think people generally have the wrong approach to framing consumption. Consumption should not be the goal of a government, the ultimate goal should be to improve the living conditions of your population. Suburbanization has not necessarily done that in the US since it created car dependence and subsequently large amounts of traffic, produces a lot of maintenance and energy burdens which could be more efficiently managed in an apartment building (apartments use around half the amount of power per unit of floor space). It also moves people a larger distance away from essential services. Of course this will increase GDP, but increasing the GDP shouldn't be the goal if it doesn't improve people's livelihoods.

The things China should focus on is improving productivity and distributing resources created through productivity improvements more equitably, burdening households with additional costs related to housing would increase GDP, reduce households savings, and possibly spur job creation but not necessarily improve living conditions for the average person.
 

abenomics12345

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As long as the foods are safe and healthy,

I think you answered yourself here. Like philosophically you are right, but empirically that is not happening.

Not everyone thinks they need the service by a waiter for every meal. When they do, they still have the choice.

You can't hire 'half a waiter' for the 'half of people who prefers to show up' during lunch hour.

Many Chinese restaurant goers are actually okay with pre-cooked foods as long as they are charged fairly. You should have known the debates on 西贝.

You are using a subjective term ('fairly') in an objective/normative manner, which is inherently flawed.

Is it fair a 500g portion of carp is sold for 10 RMB vs. a 500g portion of grouper is sold at 299 RMB?
 

hereforsemithread

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This isn't the 'win' Zhao Dashuai thinks it is.

What ends up happening is that the restaurants are forced to sell their delivery food at a lower price (coercive participation in promotions run by platforms where costs are born by the small restaurants). The conversation goes something like "hey nice delivery business you have with us, would be a shame if the traffic went away". In general most small restaurants do not have the brand/customers to not care (unless you're some famous place that people line up for) about participating in this platform.

Restaurants are forced to find ways to save costs (hire less wait staff because delivery requires less waiters), or cut corners (预制菜 anyone?).

On the other hand, its well known how the platforms gamify the delivery work for delivery drivers and squeeze the drivers to make more drops with less pay.

So in the end this ecosystem ends up focused on pseudo-zero-sum competition (there is still some nominal growth but not much) that is not quite sustainable over the long term.

But yes, someone tell us again why deflation is good.
Do you have any data to support the claim that restaurants are being forced to cut staff because of these platforms? Otherwise this is empty conjecture.
 

abenomics12345

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Do you have any data to support the claim that restaurants are being forced to cut staff because of these platforms? Otherwise this is empty conjecture.
Had you spent 30 seconds searching on Google you'd have found this 5th down on the results:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Also, that you have no idea this is happening doesn't mean I haven't been told by companies with hundreds/thousands of restaurants operating in China that this is exactly what they are doing.
 
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hereforsemithread

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Had you spent 30 seconds searching on Google you'd have found this 5th down on the results:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Also, that you have no idea this is happening doesn't mean I haven't been told by companies with hundreds/thousands of restaurants operating in China that this is exactly what they are doing.
This article cites the SPC's ruling on social security last year as being the main contributor, along with the campaign against catering excess in the party, and then the platform wars. In other words, according to your source, the primary reason for difficulty in the catering industry at the moment is that business owners are now required to make social insurance payments in proportion to how many people they hire. To this point, it elaborates that catering industries in regions with higher labor costs are being hit harder than those in poorer ones. The connection of this, and the party campaign, to China's recent bout of deflation seems unclear. I add this last point because you originally brought up restaurant performance in the context of deflation debates.
 

abenomics12345

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This article cites the SPC's ruling on social security last year as being the main contributor, along with the campaign against catering excess in the party, and then the platform wars. In other words, according to your source, the primary reason for difficulty in the catering industry at the moment is that business owners are now required to make social insurance payments in proportion to how many people they hire. To this point, it elaborates that catering industries in regions with higher labor costs are being hit harder than those in poorer ones. The connection of this, and the party campaign, to China's recent bout of deflation seems unclear. I add this last point because you originally brought up restaurant performance in the context of deflation debates.

今年第三季度,全国餐饮大盘人均消费33元,较两年前下降23.6%。

The average ticket size is down 24% over 2 years. Social security did not drive that.

Serious question, have you operated a restaurant or analyzed the financials of a restaurant in terms of how they make or lose money? Because its pretty Restaurant 101 that average ticket dropping with a fixed cost base = losing money --> cutting people/closing down.

I don't know where you live but go to your local restaurants and ask them whether Uber Eats has brought them 'extra' orders' or whether its just been 'replacing' the existing walk-in/physical traffic and whether they've cut wait staff because of that.
 

hereforsemithread

Junior Member
Registered Member
今年第三季度,全国餐饮大盘人均消费33元,较两年前下降23.6%。

The average ticket size is down 24% over 2 years. Social security did not drive that.

Serious question, have you operated a restaurant or analyzed the financials of a restaurant in terms of how they make or lose money? Because its pretty Restaurant 101 that average ticket dropping with a fixed cost base = losing money --> cutting people/closing down.

I don't know where you live but go to your local restaurants and ask them whether Uber Eats has brought them 'extra' orders' or whether its just been 'replacing' the existing walk-in/physical traffic and whether they've cut wait staff because of that.
I agree that monopolistic abuses by platform companies are bad. Are you claiming that this is a significant contributor to deflation in China's economy? If so, what drove this conclusion?
 
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