Chinese Hypersonic Developments (HGVs/HCMs)

[Blitzo]

the missile has to be boosted by rocket to high altitude and high speed before the scramjet can ignite. Vertical launch works. I don't see the point of launching from torpedo tube. It works ONLY for arguments sake not for the troubles and unreliably it brings. I has always wondered if they really know what they say, or they just through around something and eventually something by chance to be right.

One major benefit (in fact, perhaps the primary benefit) of being torpedo tube compatible is that it means all of the PLAN's submarines (i.e.: not just submarines with VLS, which at this stage is only 09IIIB if we leave out their SSBNs) have the ability to launch a high performance hypersonic cruise missile, inclusive of their large fleet of SSKs.

To be honest that isn't entirely irrational; the YJ-18 is able to be launched from torpedo tubes as well, not just the UVLS, and having a YJ-18 "successor" as a torpedo tube launched high end AShM could make sense given submarines without VLS still make up the vast majority of their underwater fleet.

 

[Temstar]

the missile has to be boosted by rocket to high altitude and high speed before the scramjet can ignite. Vertical launch works. I don't see the point of launching from torpedo tube. It works ONLY for arguments sake not for the troubles and unreliablity it brings. I has always wondered if they really know what they say, or they just through around something and eventually something by chance to be right.

For use in SSK?

 

[Tomboy]

One major benefit (in fact, perhaps the primary benefit) of being torpedo tube compatible is that it means all of the PLAN's submarines (i.e.: not just submarines with VLS, which at this stage is only 09IIIB if we leave out their SSBNs) have the ability to launch a high performance hypersonic cruise missile, inclusive of their large fleet of SSKs.

To be honest that isn't entirely irrational; the YJ-18 is able to be launched from torpedo tubes as well, not just the UVLS, and having a YJ-18 "successor" as a torpedo tube launched high end AShM could make sense given submarines without VLS still make up the vast majority of their underwater fleet.

Wouldn't this also mean this missile would be able to be carried by UUVs like that the really large one spotted earlier this year

 

[Blitzo]

Wouldn't this also mean this missile would be able to be carried by UUVs like that the really large one spotted earlier this year

Technically any vessel that carries 533mm heavyweight torpedo sized weapons could physically accommodate it.

Whether it would make sense for other platforms to do so is a whole other matter.

 

[ACuriousPLAFan]

Shilao and co has just uploaded a 2 hour long paid podcast about the new hypersonic weapons, I'm still going through that stream.

They immediately said indeed YJ-19 is specifically a scramjet engine powered air breathing HCM for 533mm torpedo tubes, and it was very difficult to develop, much more difficult than air launched HCM.

They said difficult though it was PLAN was very adamant on having air breathing HCM because it offers a very wide usable range band which the navy desires. Unpowered HGV can achieve great range yes but is not nearly as flexible in use in comparison.

They said the navy's thoughts on YJ-18 is it's hard enough for a submarine to find a surface target 500km away, it's even harder to maintain that kill chain for the whole duration of YJ-18's flight as it's cruise stage waddles slowly at subsonic speed towards the target. YJ-19 goes a long way to solve that problem.

Speaking of the 093B SSNs alone:

These boats are armed with 6x 533mm torpedo tubes and 24x 850mm VLS cells per boat. This means that one 093B SSN can put out a maximum anti-ship strike salvo of 5x or 6x YJ-19s + 24x YJ-17s and/or YJ-20s, i.e. a total of 29x or 30x hypersonic anti-ship missiles in one go.

Taking a step further - If there are viable methods to coordinate several 093B SSNs at once, this could enable massed anti-ship strike missions against a sizeable enemy warship fleet with IADS, then the impacts brought by such capabilities can never be overstated.

---

The same effect applies for the upcoming 095/A SSNs, which are only going to be ever more capable than the 093B SSNs.

I suppose this (likely) also makes China the first country to not just deploy hypersonic anti-ship missiles from submarines, but also the first to deploy hypersonic anti-ship missiles from the torpedo tubes of submarines.

Speed and flexibility aside they also said YJ-19 has more range than YJ-18, but there is one drawback in that it's warhead is a lot smaller and against very robust targets like CVN it may struggle.

This is somewhat unfortunate, but understandable.

With this in mind - Perhaps whereas the YJ-17s and YJ-20s are the primary strike elements of the 093B SSNs for striking critical/high-value enemy seaborne targets (e.g. CVNs, LHDs, CGs), the YJ-19 would be the secondary strike elements, whether to complement the YJ-17s and YJ-20s, or to strike "targets of opportunity" (e.g. DDGs, FFGs, replenishment ships).

In the meantime - Are there any more new information from said paid Guancha Gang podcast?

 

[taxiya]

One major benefit (in fact, perhaps the primary benefit) of being torpedo tube compatible is that it means all of the PLAN's submarines (i.e.: not just submarines with VLS, which at this stage is only 09IIIB if we leave out their SSBNs) have the ability to launch a high performance hypersonic cruise missile, inclusive of their large fleet of SSKs.

To be honest that isn't entirely irrational; the YJ-18 is able to be launched from torpedo tubes as well, not just the UVLS, and having a YJ-18 "successor" as a torpedo tube launched high end AShM could make sense given submarines without VLS still make up the vast majority of their underwater fleet.

For use in SSK?

the issue is not about the purpose which you are right, nor is torpedo tube laughing itself in general.

HCM can not ignite at subsonic speed. Nor can it sustain high mach flight at low altitude. This means it has to travel vertically immediately from surface of water because it has no lift unlike all other cruise missiles launched from torpedo tubes.

this means that horizontally launching it is highly challenging and risky therefor my assessment of it being doable for arguments sake.

 

[Blitzo]

the issue is not about the purpose which you are right, nor is torpedo tube laughing itself in general.

HCM can not ignite at subsonic speed. Nor can it sustain high mach flight at low altitude. This means it has to travel vertically immediately from surface of water because it has no lift unlike all other cruise missiles launched from torpedo tubes.

I don't see how that is an issue.

The HCM has a booster stage; most submarine tube launched cruise missiles when they break the water do not rely on wing lift to get them out of the water but instead use their first stage booster, before picking up speed.

After that it's just a simple matter of the booster accelerating the overall missile to the necessary speed before the second stage HCM itself with its scramjet takes over.

The orientation in which the missile breaks the water shouldn't matter too much, though from what I understand the YJ-18 from torpedo tubes does exit the water more vertically than other past torpedo tube missiles as well.

TBF it isn't that different to a subsonic cruise missile launched from a torpedo tube or a VLS for that matter. They all have a first stage booster that takes the missile to the necessary speed and altitude before the missiles own onboard air breathing engine kicks in.
The principle is the same, except for YJ-19 it is a scramjet that kicks in for hypersonic speeds.

 

[ACuriousPLAFan]

delete, answer already explained by @Blitzo above

 

[Tomboy]

In the meantime - Are there any more new information from said paid Guancha Gang podcast?

They said whatever is showcased isn't the full lineup nor is the latest product

 

[Temstar]

In the meantime - Are there any more new information from said paid Guancha Gang podcast?

Hang on I'm still listening through it, just got out of their livestream.
Their live stream was also about the parade but wasn't particularly educational, since they can't show the actual photos they just cut out silhouettes of the parade items Pokemon style and try to guess what each was.

One thing from the podcast was their said there was one truck with two really boxy launchers. If that thing reminds you of DF-100/CJ-100 from the 2019 parade then you are on the right track, they are related. They liken it to the same concept but developed with latest technology and nick named it "DF-1000/CJ-1000". The implication seems to be it's a DF-100/CJ-100 type deal, but scramjet instead of ramjet.