new 60 ton tank for the PLA

pendragon

Junior Member
Atually I think such a vehicle can only be regarded as a technolgy demonstrator.

Recent conflicts have shown us that modern warfare is about a swift strike to take out the main body of the oposing force (followed by a lengthy end bloody guerilla-like war if confronted with a locally rooted and motivated enemy).

Present tanks in PLA inventory can do the trick. Without a direct oponent to confront in the open plains around the PRC or the ability to tranport it over longer distances, the sheer size and weight of this beast, makes it a powerful, yet useles weapon. To fend off an attack, smaller more mobile AT weapons will be more efficient, since such large monsters will surely be amonst primary targetts in any attack.

Since PRC officials up and until now have demonstrated good common sence, I do not believe such vehicle is ment to be taken up in PLA inventory. But rather to be used to investigate on new weapon/armour/automotive components.
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
@[plawolf;115604]

My earlier comments about placing the tank akin to a defensive hull down position still stands. Relating back to the Battle of Kursk, the Russians found this worked as long as the attacking troops could be kept at a distance, but once the the opposing forces closed, the advantage was lost as the tank would be outflanked and attacked from the back and sides.
While the majority of the tanks were lost in open battle, the russians lost more tanks and a fair swag of them in a hull down position.

However in this instance the Chinese scenario is different, and i doubt whether the commanders are constrained by any Hitler type orders.

my view is that a tank is primarily densigned to be used as a offensive weapon, and by placing them in a defensive mode in the front lines could see them possibly taken out by advancing troops or a prepatory creeping ground barrage. Hence the inability to counter attack, I fact you pointed out with the German forces.

Quote King Comm
I don't see why China would try to develop a 60 tonne tank, it would obviously be useless in any confrontation against countries like US and Japan, while for all countries that have land borders withChina, China is already on its way to achieve the same level of dominance over them like what the US had over Iraq in the '91 war.

Yea and apart from the fact a fair portion of China isnt even tank country
 
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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
@[plawolf;115604]

My earlier comments about placing the tank akin to a defensive hull down position still stands. Relating back to the Battle of Kursk, the Russians found this worked as long as the attacking troops could be kept at a distance, but once the the opposing forces closed, the advantage was lost as the tank would be outflanked and attacked from the back and sides.
While the majority of the tanks were lost in open battle, the russians lost more tanks and a fair swag of them in a hull down position.

However in this instance the Chinese scenario is different, and i doubt whether the commanders are constrained by any Hitler type orders.

my view is that a tank is primarily densigned to be used as a offensive weapon, and by placing them in a defensive mode in the front lines could see them possibly taken out by advancing troops or a prepatory creeping ground barrage. Hence the inability to counter attack, I fact you pointed out with the German forces.

Quote King Comm


Yea and apart from the fact a fair portion of China isnt even tank country

Bladerunner your argument based on world war II german experience is way irrelevant in modern battle tank. The biggest threat faced by tank these days is not another battle tank but infantrymen armed with ATGM that was proven during Yom Kippur war when Israeli tank was massacred by Egyptian infantrymen. The israeli lost tank by hundreds, Since then we see better armour to defeat the ATGM, that is the reason why tank is getting heavier and we see the cycle of better armour beget better missile and so on


BTW German defeat in Kursk has nothing to do with defensive or offensive strategy . Though Von Manstein lost the battle in kursk, he still planned for orderly retreat but what killed him is the order from Hitler to move his main tank regiment to fight in Italy theater. End game for Von Manstein
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
I was actually thinking "Kursk" 1943 when hitler was still hoping to look for a decise battle and which by this time Guderian, one of the more attacking generals, was already preaching the doctrine of using tanks in a defensive manner.(rapid response defense / fluid defence or something like that was his new tank doctrine)

When the Kursk battle was lost and perhaps for lack of choices, the defensive doctrine crept in.

AS you say it was more the result of Hitlers policies rather than the use of tanks in a defensive manner, however if i remember correctly, the main premise of Guderians definsive strategy was to not commit to many forces in the front line in fact the barest minimum, just enough to suck the enemy in and then "wham". I think Mainstein pulled off a couple of local area wins usinging this strategy but for the rest of the war local area superiority was increasingly hard to achieve with tanks being sacrificed piece meal in a defensive mode in a no retreat policy.
IMO digging tanks in reduces ones mobility( an essential ingrediant of Guderians concept and possibly a rather negative approch. ( this is from memory after reading many reputable books on the war in the "eastern front" decades ago

Anyway I think we are both arriving at the same ideas in the proper use of the tank.

While your summary is factually correct, that was just one instance in one specific scenario. And mobility does not represent the be all end all of tank usage. There are cases and scenarios where you simply need to hold the line and going hull down in such instances is the smart thing to do. Thats a just one example of why its foolish to base your assessment on some poorly captioned pictures, which if past cases are anything to go by, could be staged by the photographers to get the most 'dramatic' pose instead of being action shots from real exercises.

PLA tanks have always placed a high priority on mobility, even at the expense of protection. Why do you think that's the case if they only want to dig them in and use them as pillboxes?

OF COURSE I DONT. but i have read a few articles by military observers or military commanders.

Foremost amongst these is a certain Chinese Col. of the Canadian army who with an associate has spent decades analysing the structure and tactics of the PLA. There wouldnt be many released documents by the PLA they havent fully scrutanised over the years. His views and articles form the basis of my opinion on the PLA. ( Im sure theres a few members on this forun know who im referring to maybe by chance you have as well.)

You are assuming knowledge equals wisdom. That is not always the case, especially why the PLA is so selective about what it tells the outside world.

The fact is they were uncomplimentary photos if used as publicity to show the PLA at its best.

And as I said before, many of these photos are staged for tabloid effect by the cameraman.

A friend of mine , a serving officer in an armoured bat. also shook his head in a bemused manner when associating the photo with the caption describing battle manouvres or something. The tanks were lined up like ducks in a shooting gallery in an amusement park.

I think King has already addressed this.

My earlier comments about placing the tank akin to a defensive hull down position still stands. Relating back to the Battle of Kursk, the Russians found this worked as long as the attacking troops could be kept at a distance, but once the the opposing forces closed, the advantage was lost as the tank would be outflanked and attacked from the back and sides.
While the majority of the tanks were lost in open battle, the russians lost more tanks and a fair swag of them in a hull down position.

However in this instance the Chinese scenario is different, and i doubt whether the commanders are constrained by any Hitler type orders.

my view is that a tank is primarily densigned to be used as a offensive weapon, and by placing them in a defensive mode in the front lines could see them possibly taken out by advancing troops or a prepatory creeping ground barrage. Hence the inability to counter attack, I fact you pointed out with the German forces.

It seems your conclusions are based on many unsupported and sometimes peculiar assumptions.

Firstly, against a near-peer foe, creeping artillery barrages are not a great idea as that will give away the position of your artillery to the enemy and expose them to counter-battery fire.

Secondly, what makes you think digging a few tanks in to give them better protection equates to digging all your tanks in? Have it ever occurred to you that it may be advantageous to dig a small portion of your tanks in to give your infantry some armor support to defend a position to force your opponent into a flanking move to expose them to your main tank force?

Attack attack attack is not the answer to every battlefield problem, and whenever I see such one-dimensional sentiment, its hard not to have doubts whether one has actually understood and analyzed famous battles instead of merely memorized them.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Atually I think such a vehicle can only be regarded as a technolgy demonstrator.

Recent conflicts have shown us that modern warfare is about a swift strike to take out the main body of the oposing force (followed by a lengthy end bloody guerilla-like war if confronted with a locally rooted and motivated enemy).

Present tanks in PLA inventory can do the trick. Without a direct oponent to confront in the open plains around the PRC or the ability to tranport it over longer distances, the sheer size and weight of this beast, makes it a powerful, yet useles weapon. To fend off an attack, smaller more mobile AT weapons will be more efficient, since such large monsters will surely be amonst primary targetts in any attack.

Since PRC officials up and until now have demonstrated good common sence, I do not believe such vehicle is ment to be taken up in PLA inventory. But rather to be used to investigate on new weapon/armour/automotive components.

Thats very peculiar reasoning to suggest not developing a better weapon because it will make a higher priority target for your enemy. Need I really point out just how illogical that is?

The current PLA tank force of 96 and 99s are idea for most of China, but there is still plenty of perfect tank country that are ideal for 60t+ tanks, and in those areas, the 96 and 99s may be at a disadvantage if faced with hostile 60t+ tanks.

I'm sure most people will agree with me that surrendering vast sways of your territory to bring the enemy into terrain more suitable to your tanks is not the best way to defend your territory.

In addition, as China's investments and interests expand globally, so must its military. And the PLA should stand ready to protect Chinese interests anywhere, and not just on the mainland itself. That means it needs to be able to fight in foreign lands if needs be.

And finally, it is a silly to just look at the trend the west is taking and think that is the future without understanding those choices first.

As far as the west is concerned, their tanks are unmatched and can steamroll any opposition. The problem is that in order to get such superiority, they had to sacrifice numbers and mobility. That's fine when they can take months to build up their forces and have a standing army to fight, but against insurgents, all that firepower and protection is wasted and what they need now is boots on the ground and rapid reaction forces. Hence the move towards cheaper, faster and lighter armor.

China already have the numbers and the medium and light armor elements. What it lacks is a heavyweight that can go toe to toe with any tank in perfect tank terrain and win. Might not be a necessity, but if you have the cash for it, why not?
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Secondly, what makes you think digging a few tanks in to give them better protection equates to digging all your tanks in? Have it ever occurred to you that it may be advantageous to dig a small portion of your tanks in to give your infantry some armor support to defend a position to force your opponent into a flanking move to expose them to your main tank force?

I would have thought these days there was a greater range of weaponry to choose from to give the infantry more stopping power than a dug in tank.

Remember the old nusery rhyme for want of a shoe the battle was lost.
In this case it could easily be for the want of a squad of tanks the battle was lost.

I was actually applying to the scenario, Guderian's strategy of only placing the barest minimum at the first point of battle, and keeping the essentials for the counterpunch.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
I would have thought these days there was a greater range of weaponry to choose from to give the infantry more stopping power than a dug in tank.

How many ATGMs do you think infantry platoons carry? Infantry these days have smarter weapons, but sometimes there's just not substitute for a big fat HE tank shell.

Tanks are also a nice big target and will attract a lot of enemy fire. The more enemy ordinance bouncing off frontal armor or digging into mud, the less of it is suppressing your infantry.

Remember the old nusery rhyme for want of a shoe the battle was lost.
In this case it could easily be for the want of a squad of tanks the battle was lost.

And those dug-in tanks can't just reverse out at a moment's notice? They are dug in, not buried. If they are desperately needed elsewhere, its a simple matter to reverse them out and send them on their way.

I was actually applying to the scenario, Guderian's strategy of only placing the barest minimum at the first point of battle, and keeping the essentials for the counterpunch.

But you are applying it wholesale, including the underlying factors that made that strategy the most effect under the circumstances.

I don't think there will be many battles the PLA might fight where they are as outnumbered as the Germans were against the Russians, thus importing the ideal strategy under those circumstances directly is a bit silly if you stop and think about it.

Besides, the underlying principle of hold and counter attack is to first use a small portion of your strength to blunt an enemy attack, and then strike back with your main force while they flounder. If you execute that to perfection, there is a chance you can get a flank thrust or even cut off the enemy vanguard and destroy it.

But that strategy is based on the assumption that you can hold off the main enemy attack long enough for your tanks to flank them. Its no good sending your main tank force to flank an attacking enemy force only to discover that they have punched a hole in your lines and are somewhere wrecking havoc in your back lines by the time your counter-attack arrives at the strong point where you were supposed to join battle.
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
How many ATGMs do you think infantry platoons carry? Infantry these days have smarter weapons, but sometimes there's just not substitute for a big fat HE tank shell.

Tanks are also a nice big target and will attract a lot of enemy fire. The more enemy ordinance bouncing off frontal armor or digging into mud, the less of it is suppressing your infantry.



And those dug-in tanks can't just reverse out at a moment's notice? They are dug in, not buried. If they are desperately needed elsewhere, its a simple matter to reverse them out and send them on their way.



But you are applying it wholesale, including the underlying factors that made that strategy the most effect under the circumstances.

I don't think there will be many battles the PLA might fight where they are as outnumbered as the Germans were against the Russians, thus importing the ideal strategy under those circumstances directly is a bit silly if you stop and think about it.

Besides, the underlying principle of hold and counter attack is to first use a small portion of your strength to blunt an enemy attack, and then strike back with your main force while they flounder. If you execute that to perfection, there is a chance you can get a flank thrust or even cut off the enemy vanguard and destroy it.

But that strategy is based on the assumption that you can hold off the main enemy attack long enough for your tanks to flank them. Its no good sending your main tank force to flank an attacking enemy force only to discover that they have punched a hole in your lines and are somewhere wrecking havoc in your back lines by the time your counter-attack arrives at the strong point where you were supposed to join battle.

You presented some very interesting points, while I can see some minor flaws in your logic, I would only be nitpicking and wouldnt be good enough to infuence the debate in my favour. Thankyou for an illuminative discussion.
 

vesicles

Colonel
About that video of PLA tanks lining up like ducks, I also think this was for publicity. This is a video shot by CCTV for public viewing. For one, they don't want experts to know exactly what they are really doing since this would be considered military secret. Second, a whole bunch of tanks lining up and shooting is eye-popping to the general public. Remember that the first priority of the Chinese govn't is not some foreign power, but domestic stability. Shocking the public with the awesome Hollywood-like show-of-force can definitely make the Chinese people admire the PLA and also the govn't. So it makes perfect sense when they do this.

I also highly doubt the the PLA doesn't know anything about tank warfare. Yes, PLA has little actual battlefield experience using tanks, but it has plenty of experience fighting tanks, from WWII to civil war to the Korean War. It knows the strenght and weaknesses of tanks. Afterall, if you want to fight someone/something, the first thing is to truly understand your enemy.

Yes, China has not been in any major conflicts for at least 4 decades. Its lack of experience can be said of any field, be it tank tactics, infantry tactics, air-to-air combat, naval combats, etc.... If China is able to come up with intelligent tactics in other fields, why can't they come up wth good tactics for tanks??? Plus, China had been focusing on ground forces for decades, how incompetent do you think the Chinese are that they can't even figure out how to line their tanks??? If some ammatures and common soldiers can immediately spot a certain mistake, the Chinese PLA professional tankers have to have an IQ of 15 to NOT notice it. With all the resources they got, it should be easy to get at least the most basic info on tank tactics.

Additionally, with all the awesome Chinese spies stealing everything from infantry uniforms to missiles and spaceshuttles, you would think they would have stolen something on how to use tanks... (Of course, I'm being sarcastic...). Let's be consistent.
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
The photograph I was thinking off when making the suggestion, had tanks tranversing a hilltop against a setting sun and silohuetting themslves against the a skyline thus offering themselves as easy targets.

PLAWOLF has come up with a host off plausible suggestions as to why, so as far as Im concerned its done and dusted.;)

@Vesicles
with all the awesome Chinese spies stealing everything
Im disappointed, as you sound as if you codone it.

I consider the actions of people who immigrate to another country, accept their hospitality, swear alliegence to the country by adopting citizenship, and then conspiring/ betraying the trust bestowed upon them, rather reprehensible to put it mildly.

I reckon most of them have acted out of greed than patriotism.
 
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