Chinese Economics Thread

horse

Major
Registered Member
US grand strategy is often misunderstood or underestimated. Not to say Americans are geniuses, but they're neither stupid nor incompetent. Since the end of World War 2 and especially after the fall of the Soviet Union, they've managed to basically get the world by its balls:
  • First, they gradually came to dominate finance via their currency and capital markets. Using financial power, they then buy up the companies and industries of other countries, and make the best talent work for them. Don't want to sell? Then the US will sanction / isolate / topple your government, either directly if they can find an excuse, or indirectly through sabotage, infiltration, and media control.
  • Despite this financial focus, however, the US never neglected its R&D - which is how you can tell they actually have a strategy and isn't just being greedy. R&D is fundamentally a loss making enterprise, especially in the short term; but the US, contrary to the stereotype of dumb Americans, spent trillions on it. This allowed them to, for decades, control 90+% of "new technology" through having the best research institutions, strong industrial-academic-military fusion, and the best venture capital environment in the world.
  • This lead in "new technology" then allowed the US to create new industries that they automatically dominated - like computers, smart phones, the internet, AI, EVs, etc. - and in so doing, create an "innovation monopoly"; hence the stereotype of US companies being particularly inventive even though it actually is just their R&D spend is so much larger than other countries.
  • Mature industries with lower margins were off loaded to other countries, mainly because they were a drag on profits and, as stated above, US grand strategy called for maximizing return on investment in order to dominate global finance, with which they could keep spending on R&D, buy up whatever they wanted, and support a huge military to pressure those who won't sell.
  • The final arm of the strategy is "export controls" or what is more appropriately understood as a high-end technology monopoly. Since the US spent so much $$$ on R&D, it naturally wanted to control the fruits of that R&D. To do so, it made strategic investments in IP enforcement and high-end supply chains, ensuring that they were ultimately under its control either directly or through trusted allies. This is how it keeps its leash on the Europeans, the Japanese, and the South Koreans. It might have surprised many Chinese that the US was able to get those countries to readily follow its lead in technology sanctions; but it's not surprising once you realize that those countries' high-end supply chains rely on US components, IPs, and R&D institutions. EUV lithography wasn't invented by ASML or the Dutch. It was invented in US labs. TSMC would not be able to operate without US technology.
The US grand strategy is quite sensible and was obviously made by people who knew their ****. The facade of American politicians being essentially incompetent is just that - a facade. The people who are in charge of policy aren't the talking heads on TV. There is actual intelligence behind the throne.

But, intelligent and well-educated though they might be, US strategists are, at the end of the day, still just people; and people make mistakes. Their biggest mistake was believing that China could be subjugated by their financial machine, the same way other countries have been - and to be fair, for a while, it looked like China was going that way. But the rise of Xi Jinping - a guy who by all accounts was a socialist fundamentalist who "did not care about money" - was not expected. The sudden about turn by China - getting rid of entrenched capital interests, going after private power brokers, eliminating foreign agents and the deep culture of private-public corruption that had thrived before 2012 - caught them by surprise.

Although mainstream media regards Trump as the guy who did a 180 on the relationship, 2012 was the actual moment when US plans for China came crashing down and relations switched to being fundamentally antagonistic. The US grand strategy assumed that no country could look at the state of the world and think that it could take on the US; that all would recognize the futility of challenging US hegemony; and that the various examples of failures - the USSR, Japan, Germany, the EU, etc. - would sufficiently discourage any who might try.

But they were wrong.


Although I do not necessarily disagree with what you wrote, I like it very much, would like to add a couple of other points.

1.
It is what they said after WW1 that four empires were destroyed, something like that.

The same happened after WW2, no one was left standing in Europe. The British spent all their money in the war. Germany was completely destroyed.

The Marshall Plan was a stoke of genius on behalf of the Americans. It helped put Europe back on its feet, in a couple of generations.

During the meantime, America stood alone, untouched basically by WW2, unlike how the other countries had it. In short, as everyone was recovering, the Americans just kept on going, they had the luxury that their competitors were all kaput at the time.

America was like China today in many ways in terms of manufacturing power after WW2, because no one else around basically.

By the 1960's and 1970's Germany and Japan, defeated enemies, were allowed to remake themselves under American tutelage.

Incidentally, that was the time US manufacturing power started to decline, because the competition had returned.

2.
By the 1980's off shoring lower end manufacturing was a thing among rich developed nations.

It did not make sense to manufacture low end stuff, so just move that manufacturing aboard, lower costs for the Western multinational company. (That meant more profits.) The high end manufacturing remained in the West, because the other places were too backwards to do that.

This part, I firmly believe, there is no grand plan here.

That is just how things are. That is just business.

The Marxist have a nice view about it too IMHO, they call it exploitation, which I cannot disagree with either. Heh. Remember the stories we use to read, that how Apple iPhones made in China, that Apple would reap most of the value added and the money, while China got 1%-3% of it? That is just exploitation, on a global scale, but that was what class struggle is all about, capital versus labour.


So, all I am saying is two things, to add to the discussion.

1. America made some right moves, but they had not some advantages, but all the advantages after WW2. How history will judge the American power after WW2, has to be done in comparison to the era when the competition came back into picture.

2. How America rigged the global system to suit itself, although I am rightist, I believe what the Marxist are saying about that. Because that is how it always has been done, historically how European leading countries would do things, that trajectory was the same more or less historically.

I am not a Marxist, okay, maybe I am. What I really want, as rightist, is to save capitalism! If the Marxist can help me save capitalism, then I am all for it. That is why I have supreme faith in the Chinese Communist Party, they will save capitalism in the world. No one else will. Look at America. Free money, legislation for forced sales of private companies.

3. Actually there are more related thing we can talk forever about, and the Belt Road Initiative, ten years ago, someone made a study and added up all the numbers, and realized One Belt One Road was 7x times the size of the Marshall Plan. That is why all the bs from Western media never worked all these years. They had no clue.

4. It is what Kissinger said about the Chinese. He the Chinese have been around for a very long time, and face every possible political situation, when they were strong and when they were weak, and we are still here.

So, we can use that lens to view the Americans. It is easy playing the game when you got a three touchdown lead because the other team fumbled three times giving free points. Now that you are behind, let's see what you got.

Recently, that is not very impressive.

:D
 

TK3600

Captain
Registered Member
so unfortunately, it's not always their choice. Apple tells luxshare to offshore to India. Luxshare can keep its place in supply chain by offshoring to India or forgetting about that prized Apple contract.

As for other businesses, they have the choice of doing JVs and get market access or not being in the market. India is an exceptionally protectionist control where gov't is controlled by the 7 richest families. Modi gov't does what those big families tell them. So if you want to access Indian market, you have to work with those families. The other option of course is to just be the supply chain for those Indian companies. That has been happening increasingly also.
And how did it go for Apple? It was an obvious trap. Just don't invest there. If they do not want business there is no point forcing it.
 

GodRektsNoobs

Junior Member
Registered Member
All I can say is that the local Subaru/JLR dealer here started importing Changans about 4 years ago and now they're everywhere. Are they as good quality as Audi/BMW/Mercedes? No. Are they good VFM? Yes.
Well, Changans are never meant to compete with German luxury, probably more in line with Chevys/Toyotas/VW. You'll have to wait until Avatr lands in your country before comparing them with Audi/BMW/Mercedes.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
To be exact, the US does not necessarily create the first product of a new technology; but what they do very well is:
  • Generate the original, key research. This is due to the strength of the academic institutions & funding. If you look at the story behind most modern technologies, it was typically invented in an US lab or with the help of US universities. This makes collaboration with America research institutions very attractive and is a major step in making other countries dependent on US technology. Logically, the US then used its innovation power to enforce its IPs across the globe, ensuring compliance and reliance.
  • Get enormous amounts of venture capitalist funding for new classes of products. The rise of the US software industry is a great example. The rise of Elon Musk's companies - from Tesla, to Space X, to Open AI - are other examples. Due to its financial power, the US is able to just throw cash at promising start ups; which other countries simply cannot compete with, hence their retreat to lower margin industries.
  • Off load mature industries to strategic partners whose economies and politics they mostly maintain control of. This is the "Japan story" and the "South Korea story" and the "Germany story" and so on. The US recognizes it does not have the ability to maintain a complete supply chain in everything, and to its credit, it historically did NOT waste all its money on trying to do so via subsidies. Instead, it allowed industries like electronics manufacturing, chips manufacturing, and most heavy industries to go to other countries.
The third of these is where the US arguably made its greatest mistake. Where previously, the US out sourced industries to countries - like Japan, South Korea, Germany, etc. - that were effectively its vassals, with China it took a risk in out sourcing to a country that wasn't yet a vassal, but which the US, in its over confidence, thought it could effectively subjugate. But China wasn't like the other countries the US had out sourced industries to. China had a mind of its own.

Now, I agree that the EV industry is a great example of the US miscalculation, but my take on it is not a failure of the US to invest - much of the key technologies behind EV, once again came from US universities - but rather its failure to stop the momentum of Chinese manufacturing after realizing that Xi Jinping wasn't going to just follow orders.

The fact is, by the time EVs became a serious product, the US had already lost much of its automobile manufacturing capabilities - the famous Rust Belt centered around Detroit being a cultural symbol of that process. Making the US the center of EV manufacturing was never a practical goal.

But, I think, the US figured it could do the same thing it did in smart phones, which was capture most of the product value through dominating the 1) high-end branding 2) high-value components and 3) IPs & technologies, while doing the actual manufacturing in cheap Asian countries. It definitely had chance to do so with Tesla, since Tesla was, for a time, way ahead of its global competitors in branding, technology; and it was able to keep margins high and costs low by manufacturing in China, the same way Apple did.

Where it all went wrong for the US, however, was in 2) and 3). There, China proved to be far more competent than the US thought possible in its take over of batteries technology, while at the same time, subjugating China became much more difficult than the US thought it'd be. Where a Japan might have been given the Plaza treatment and forced to yield its high technology and IP to US investors, China did the exact opposite and told the US to **** off. With neither the option of manufacturing EVs itself, nor the option of subjugating the country that could do its manufacturing, the US is left with no choice but to sanction China - as China showed the cracks in the US grand strategy that is, in fact, leading to its reevaluation in the halls of power.

This is the reason why you're seeing so much talk about "bringing back manufacturing to the US"; because the powers behind the throne are witnessing, for the first time, the limits of their strategy - when a country they DON'T control refuses to be bought out, and can keep up on the R&D & marketing front. For US strategists, it's a new world.
The startup engine worked well for decades... until now. And it completely broke down after the pandemic.

1. they did very poorly with renewable energy and EVs.
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and what we talked about with EVs. And this is a core sector due to peak oil and climate change.

2. profit margins on many of their big mid 2010's bets far underperformed what they had hoped for.
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and they are still trying to
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3.
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HighGround

Junior Member
Registered Member
The startup engine worked well for decades... until now. And it completely broke down after the pandemic.

1. they did very poorly with renewable energy and EVs.
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and what we talked about with EVs. And this is a core sector due to peak oil and climate change.

The most successful EV company is Tesla. Which spent 15+ years operating at a loss. As have plenty of other companies.

2. profit margins on many of their big mid 2010's bets far underperformed what they had hoped for.
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and they are still trying to
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3.
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20137021-1681743176373857.png

That's what high interest rates will do to you, but anyway, the problem with United States isn't "startups" or whatever. The issue was always the over-financialization of the US economy, and innovation which did not produce real value.

Instagram, for example, is a tremendously successful startup and one that has produced enormous value for Facebook and shareholders, but it does not produce any actual value. It does not create anything, it's just another way for people to rot their brains.

Useful startups like Battery and EV tech, is hampered by endless regulations, lack of skilled labor, and poor supply chains, that prevent rapid expansion, deployment, and therefore profitability for these kinds of startups. Political considerations also prevent these startups from simply outsourcing these things to China. This makes tech, software, and social media, the preferred investments, which only exacerbates the problem of U.S. slowly becoming a "make nothing" economy.

Consequently, we are actually seeing a renaissance for the U.S. solar industry, precisely because it received a lot of political backing.

But none of these things apply to China, which is fundamentally a different economy, with a political establishment that's clearly more interested in tangible things rather than pure GDP numbers.
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
And how did it go for Apple? It was an obvious trap. Just don't invest there. If they do not want business there is no point forcing it.
What do you mean how did it go for Apple? Apple is clearly moving more production to India. So you are luxshare, you can either follow suite and keep your work share. Or if you don't do it, that work share goes to Foxconn. What you are saying makes no sense.
 

chgough34

Junior Member
Registered Member
Feel like the past few pages are longer ways of saying that even absent policy intervention - incumbency can be self-sustaining through multiple channels (standards setting at international organizations, cash flows for R&D, greater collaboration from other parties, political deference extended to home country firms, etc)
 

gelgoog

Brigadier
Registered Member
To be exact, the US does not necessarily create the first product of a new technology; but what they do very well is:
  • Generate the original, key research. This is due to the strength of the academic institutions & funding. If you look at the story behind most modern technologies, it was typically invented in an US lab or with the help of US universities. This makes collaboration with America research institutions very attractive and is a major step in making other countries dependent on US technology. Logically, the US then used its innovation power to enforce its IPs across the globe, ensuring compliance and reliance.
The US does have strong research institutions but a lot of technology that looks "American" at a first glance was actually originally developed abroad and then brought into the US research sector and passed as some sort of home grown innovation. What the US does have is basically a complete ecosystem which allows such ideas to be transplanted into the private sector and grown there. The research institutions themselves try to promote startups. For example look at the history of RISC-V and SiFive but there are loads of other examples.

I had some input into the original RISC-V specification and am responsible for some aspects of the architecture. I was in one of the brainstorming sessions which led to the definition of the architecture. But you won't find my name anywhere in the research papers or any attribution whatsoever. Nor will you find the names of other anonymous people who contributed to the initial architecture design which were in those sessions. If you really want to know I pushed for the RISC-V architecture to have 32 registers, for the standard to have 32-bit/64-bit/128-bit archs, no flags register, and the compressed instructions (although I named them differently). I also strongly hinted that they better add a DLX Vector ISA with an option of a SIMD ISA for lower end products. The guys at Berkeley came up with the architectural extensions scheme and the branch instructions. If there is one thing I regret is that we couldn't convince the team at Berkeley to have more complex memory addressing instructions. I suggested that the RISC-V specification should be open source licensed, to ensure its success, and discussed possible licensing schemes with the guy responsible for the legal matters then. I suggested either MIT, BSD, or Apache License. They settled on the BSD license it being a Berkeley project and all. I also suggested to Yunsup Lee that they use a business model of creating core designs and licensing these to other makers i.e. the ARM business model. I think he was the one who came up with the idea of having parametric cores the client can pick and choose. I would be surprised if they still remembered me though. Heh.

A lot of research in the US used to be done at the large monopolies like AT&T but that isn't nearly the same as it used to be. The excessive focus on "shareholder value" in the US has led to the destruction of most such research in the US. Huawei still operates like this. And such companies can be a potent driver of research.

  • Get enormous amounts of venture capitalist funding for new classes of products. The rise of the US software industry is a great example. The rise of Elon Musk's companies - from Tesla, to Space X, to Open AI - are other examples. Due to its financial power, the US is able to just throw cash at promising start ups; which other countries simply cannot compete with, hence their retreat to lower margin industries.
To a large degree the US having the bigger market also makes a difference here. It is not just about funding.

  • Off load mature industries to strategic partners whose economies and politics they mostly maintain control of. This is the "Japan story" and the "South Korea story" and the "Germany story" and so on. The US recognizes it does not have the ability to maintain a complete supply chain in everything, and to its credit, it historically did NOT waste all its money on trying to do so via subsidies. Instead, it allowed industries like electronics manufacturing, chips manufacturing, and most heavy industries to go to other countries.
You make it seem like these countries didn't fight tooth and nail in some cases to get there. The rise of Japan was anything but simple. For every Japan you have a dozen Brazils. Japan already had a tradition of industrial development, and they developed their own technologies in order to not be dependent on US know-how. Until they were neutered in the 1990s with the Plaza Accords anyway.

The third of these is where the US arguably made its greatest mistake. Where previously, the US out sourced industries to countries - like Japan, South Korea, Germany, etc. - that were effectively its vassals, with China it took a risk in out sourcing to a country that wasn't yet a vassal, but which the US, in its over confidence, thought it could effectively subjugate. But China wasn't like the other countries the US had out sourced industries to. China had a mind of its own.
Their existing vassals didn't have enough manpower to provide the industrial base for the whole world. Only China had enough manpower to do this. And it was a huge opportunity for the capitalist class in the US to get rich as well. Not for the common US worker though.

Now, I agree that the EV industry is a great example of the US miscalculation, but my take on it is not a failure of the US to invest - much of the key technologies behind EV, once again came from US universities - but rather its failure to stop the momentum of Chinese manufacturing after realizing that Xi Jinping wasn't going to just follow orders.

The fact is, by the time EVs became a serious product, the US had already lost much of its automobile manufacturing capabilities - the famous Rust Belt centered around Detroit being a cultural symbol of that process. Making the US the center of EV manufacturing was never a practical goal.
You are seriously mistaken. Having a strong auto sector is actually a detriment to igniting EV development. The main driver was cheap lithium ion battery cells. If you look at it, the two titans right now are Tesla and BYD and neither of them were originally started by people from the automotive sector.

But, I think, the US figured it could do the same thing it did in smart phones, which was capture most of the product value through dominating the 1) high-end branding 2) high-value components and 3) IPs & technologies, while doing the actual manufacturing in cheap Asian countries. It definitely had chance to do so with Tesla, since Tesla was, for a time, way ahead of its global competitors in branding, technology; and it was able to keep margins high and costs low by manufacturing in China, the same way Apple did.
Dell and the other PC vendors like Compaq started this business model of outsourcing production to Asia before either of those companies. I give credit to Apple and Tesla in that they don't just outsource everything outright and actually retain significant design talent themselves.

Where it all went wrong for the US, however, was in 2) and 3). There, China proved to be far more competent than the US thought possible in its take over of batteries technology, while at the same time, subjugating China became much more difficult than the US thought it'd be. Where a Japan might have been given the Plaza treatment and forced to yield its high technology and IP to US investors, China did the exact opposite and told the US to **** off. With neither the option of manufacturing EVs itself, nor the option of subjugating the country that could do its manufacturing, the US is left with no choice but to sanction China - as China showed the cracks in the US grand strategy that is, in fact, leading to its reevaluation in the halls of power.

This is the reason why you're seeing so much talk about "bringing back manufacturing to the US"; because the powers behind the throne are witnessing, for the first time, the limits of their strategy - when a country they DON'T control refuses to be bought out, and can keep up on the R&D & marketing front. For US strategists, it's a new world.
No. This has happened before. This time the US is the British Empire and China is the US. Their Empire is supposed to eclipse. Unfortunately the people who control the US aren't willing to accept their new position in the world.
 
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