Germany Carl Zeiss, heart of Dutch ASML Lithography Equipment.

tidalwave · Dec 11, 2019

Two pulse lasers used. First one is pre-pulse and second is main pulse.
When an Sn droplet target is irradiated with pre-pulse laser and/or CO 2 laser beams, the Sn droplet in the vessel is con-
verted into a plasma-emitting EUV where several states of Sn exist simultaneously. The different Sn states are generally
classified as fragments, neutral atoms, or ions. All fragments are vaporized by main pulse.

T

AndrewS · Dec 11, 2019

tidalwave said:
Right now it's reaching point of state of emergency. Alot of Chinese tech companies under US sanction not just huawei. If Trump reelected it's gonna get worst. SMIC would also be sanctioned.
Only the end result counts, doesnt matter how to do it. And most importantly everyone has to pitch in. Huawei is a big player and definitely can pitch in directly or indirectly.

What China needs to do now is going to second market and purchase as many equipments and materials as possible. IF the big axe comes down. hopefully those equipments are enough to last until self developed ones come on board.

Right now conventional thinking is not enough to fight the firestorm

If it is so urgent, then SMIC is the best option to ramp up semiconductor production in China.
Even then, it would still take years to increase capacity.

If Huawei acquired SMIC, it would just slow them down.

tidalwave · Dec 11, 2019

AndrewS said:
If it is so urgent, then SMIC is the best option to ramp up semiconductor production in China.
Even then, it would still take years to increase capacity.

If Huawei acquired SMIC, it would just slow them down.

Or Huuawei use its deep pocket to build its own fab and hire more process engineers from taiwna/korea/japan and license SMIC's 14/12nm tech to get going.
You propose 1 path. I propose 2 paths;using SMIC but also try on its own at the same time.

AndrewS · Dec 12, 2019

tidalwave said:
Or Huuawei use its deep pocket to build its own fab and hire more process engineers from taiwna/korea/japan and license SMIC's 14/12nm tech to get going.
You propose 1 path. I propose 2 paths;using SMIC but also try on its own at the same time.

There are already too many fabs in China, but not enough equipment and engineers to operate them. We saw that previously with so many fabs being built then being mothballed.
It's not money or equipment that is the issue, but personnel and expertise that is in short supply.

The Chinese semiconductor companies are already trying to hire as many process engineers from abroad as possible.
What does a Huawei semiconductor working under US sanctions add?

Huawei is barred from semiconductor tooling/software that SMIC can currently obtain.

SMIC needs to focus on the semiconductor fab processes and equipment, before the US places it on the Entity List.
So Huawei trying to setup a 14nm/12nm process under license from SMIC is going to distract both Huawei and SMIC.

As for Huawei, I think its strategy has to be to sidestep the Entity List by focusing on creating new technologies/products that don't yet exist.
Eg. 5G, Internet of Things, ARM desktop/server processors, HarmonyOS software, AI, etc
So there are no existing competitors with superior technology and expertise, like we see in the semiconductor industry.

14nm/12nm fabs are an existing technology, so Huawei would have to spend billions and 5? years, just to get to that older technology level.
It would be nice if Huawei could get into semiconductor production, but SMIC can do a better job.
If SMIC needs funding for fabs, there is no doubt that it can get it.

But in 5-10 years, when Huawei and the overall Chinese semiconductor industry is a lot bigger, better and less dependent on foreign technology - it may make sense for Huawei to get into semiconductor fabrication.

localizer · Dec 14, 2019

tidalwave said:
Or Huuawei use its deep pocket to build its own fab and hire more process engineers from taiwna/korea/japan and license SMIC's 14/12nm tech to get going.
You propose 1 path. I propose 2 paths;using SMIC but also try on its own at the same time.

Worst case scenario, China acquires TSMC the hard way and studies/uses the equipment. Based on what I've learned from my sources, TSMC has a scorched earth policy in case of Chinese takeover. China cannot allow them to destroy the data and equipment.

AndrewS · Dec 15, 2019

localizer said:
Worst case scenario, China acquires TSMC the hard way and studies/uses the equipment. Based on what I've learned from my sources, TSMC has a scorched earth policy in case of Chinese takeover. China cannot allow them to destroy the data and equipment.

I can believe TSMC have contingency plans to destroy everything.

But if Taiwan is lost, will they really do it?

The consequences for the executives who ordered this will be severe, and I'm certain that they will be made personally aware of this. In comparison, an intact TSMC has a lot of leverage.

And worse case? TSMC and SMIC come to a deal since many shared the same office spaces. Then SMIC protects TSMC's position.

tidalwave · Dec 15, 2019

AndrewS said:
There are already too many fabs in China, but not enough equipment and engineers to operate them. We saw that previously with so many fabs being built then being mothballed.
It's not money or equipment that is the issue, but personnel and expertise that is in short supply.

The Chinese semiconductor companies are already trying to hire as many process engineers from abroad as possible.
What does a Huawei semiconductor working under US sanctions add?

Huawei is barred from semiconductor tooling/software that SMIC can currently obtain.

SMIC needs to focus on the semiconductor fab processes and equipment, before the US places it on the Entity List.
So Huawei trying to setup a 14nm/12nm process under license from SMIC is going to distract both Huawei and SMIC.

As for Huawei, I think its strategy has to be to sidestep the Entity List by focusing on creating new technologies/products that don't yet exist.
Eg. 5G, Internet of Things, ARM desktop/server processors, HarmonyOS software, AI, etc
So there are no existing competitors with superior technology and expertise, like we see in the semiconductor industry.

14nm/12nm fabs are an existing technology, so Huawei would have to spend billions and 5? years, just to get to that older technology level.
It would be nice if Huawei could get into semiconductor production, but SMIC can do a better job.
If SMIC needs funding for fabs, there is no doubt that it can get it.

But in 5-10 years, when Huawei and the overall Chinese semiconductor industry is a lot bigger, better and less dependent on foreign technology - it may make sense for Huawei to get into semiconductor fabrication.

For starter, Huawei can buy and take over Intel Fab in Dalian. It's doing chipset, before and Intel try to convert to flash. Anyway, that fab isn't that high in Intel priority. Huawei can take over that fab and convert it do its own chips. Take over the equipment and personnels.
I believe Huawei needs to get knoweldge of Semiconductor manufacturing sooner or later. Might as well get its feet wet now. Postponing it wouldnt do it any good.

tidalwave · Dec 15, 2019

The reason that Huawei shouldn't get involved in Semiconductor because it's a banned company and couldn't get its hand on Western equipment , materials, technology is the exact opposite point that I am trying to make at this thread.

This thread is geared toward China building from ground up the complete Semiconductor supply chain, lithography, equipment, materials, etc. It should be completely independent from the West, not just US.

Huawei should take a very large role in that. It's influential and can help spawn a new industry. It doesn't take anything from SMIC because it's doing something new. It will train up a lot of new Semiconductor engineers.

This is playing offensive. Just to get in Semiconductor manufacturing using Western technology is conservative and playing defense only. It won't cure the root causes.

Biscuits · Dec 15, 2019

Better to move directly and put sanctions on the major American electronics companies. Give them something to worry about at home.

Intel and Qualcomm is able to undercut SMIC and TSMC because they’re receiving assistance from the US govt. Target that support, and companies will find the latter two much more attractive.

AndrewS · Dec 15, 2019

tidalwave said:
For starter, Huawei can buy and take over Intel Fab in Dalian. It's doing chipset, before and Intel try to convert to flash. Anyway, that fab isn't that high in Intel priority. Huawei can take over that fab and convert it do its own chips. Take over the equipment and personnels.
I believe Huawei needs to get knoweldge of Semiconductor manufacturing sooner or later. Might as well get its feet wet now. Postponing it wouldnt do it any good.

Is Intel seriously going to sell a fab to Huawei? It's not going to happen

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