Genome and Genetics Disccussions (Stay within SD Rules)

vesicles

Colonel
I think I posted my responses inside your post. My bad; I don't know how to do it the other way.

there is no way that I can quote you...

A few points. First of all, my statistics. It is perfectly valid. Your point is Chinese athletes are genetically at a disadvantage in certain sports because they lack athletes in certain height and weight categories. I show you that the Chinese athletes have the same height and weight as other nations.

About sickle-cell disease. It was my attempt to illustrate a potential difference in one physiological feature does not give you the ultimate advantage in a sporting activity. We only see the most obvious things, such as big muscles. what we don't know is that many other features will need to coordinate to achieve a final outcome. My example of sickle-cell disease was aimed to show you that a single different feature does not usually mean advantage, no matter how obvious it is.

About why white people don't run. It's not that they can't afford it. It is that they are interested in something else. they grow up doing the activities that they do, like tennis, golf and rugby. That has become a habit. And when some of them become good at some of these activities, they focus on them and become an athlete. It is similar with rugby. Since black athletes are so good at football, why don't they participate rugby? they grow up playing football. And that's what they have been accustomed to.
 

solarz

Brigadier
What you are saying is to use system like training and discovering the talented to compensate the disadvantage of genetics. That is your solution to the shortfall, but not rejecting the existence of the shortfall.

It surely works, no doubt, but it does not run against the genetic advantage either because the reason that you do it is because of the difficulties in finding the right one in a vast pool of population.

I don't really see a disagreement between you and manqiangrexue's posts as he did not dismiss the importance of training. If we all agree the importance of both factors, we are perfectly agreeing to one another.

I don't think there is disagreement over the fundamentals, but I am approaching this from a different perspective.

Discussions of nature vs nurture without a proper context is pointless, but when we do introduce a context, the debate becomes irrelevant.

Take the training example, which was specific to the olympics, where the end goal is to produce medal-winning athletes. It doesn't matter how good your genetic pool is, if you don't have a good athletic program, you're not going to be winning medals in the olympics. You can hypothesize that a good genetic pool can save resources on the training program, or increase probability of winning, but you won't ever be able to measure how much of an effect it would have. Therefore, what would be the point of debating about genetics? It would be much more productive to just boost your training program.

To take a different example: are there genetic predispositions toward academic achievement? I'm not talking about race here, just individual differences in genetics and their influence on children's academic abilities. This has been studied and debated extensively. Some psychologist posit that genetics is like a bucket and learning is like the water you pour into a bucket, but then that begs the question: how do you know how big the "bucket" is, if not by measuring the "water" (i.e. academic achievement)? So how can you ever account for the "size" of the "bucket"? In reality, you cannot ever separate the "bucket" from the "water", and since the only thing you can ever measure is the "water", what is the relevance of debates about bucket sizes?
 

vesicles

Colonel

OK, you need to stop putting quotes in my posts. This is annoying...

About my mention of genetics as voodoo. I think you perfectly understand what I meant, but intentionally misquote me out of context. I meant that using genetics to explain different outcomes in sports is voodoo. I did not mean genetics in general is voodoo. you should know better than to misquote me like that.

And bringing up a few locations at the TMC won't strengthen your credibility.

And I am a PI myself. So don't worry about me being laughed out of a room...

Please go back to my earlier posts. My position has not changed since my first post on this topic. It's all about coordination of multiple physiological partners. One advantage does not guarantee that you will out-perform others. that has been my point since post#1.

again, I don't believe any of the BS explanations on Asians are less competitive in certain sports because they are genetically smaller. It's about nutrition and training. Don't misquote me out of context to score cheap shots.

Correlation studies on races have been done before. Show me literature.

Making cheap shots at me won't make your points stronger.

I have literature and actual data to support my points. you on the other hand need to find actual data to support your points. If you can't, as you keep insisting about lab animals, then stop making empty statements. How can you keep making statements without having data to support you? As a scientist, you should know that.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
there is no way that I can quote you...

A few points. First of all, my statistics. It is perfectly valid. Your point is Chinese athletes are genetically at a disadvantage in certain sports because they lack athletes in certain height and weight categories. I show you that the Chinese athletes have the same height and weight as other nations.

Ohhh, that's what you were getting at? No, you're still wrong. For example, Russia can field an athlete in the super heavyweight division, and China can field one too. But Russia picked him out of 50 guys while China only had 5 to pick from. So while we both put a guy up there who weighs about the same, our Chinese guy is a lot less talented because he was picked out of a smaller talent pool. That's why we have never beaten Russia at the Super heavies. It's not because we couldn't even get a guy to go up there.

About sickle-cell disease. It was my attempt to illustrate a potential difference in one physiological feature does not give you the ultimate advantage in a sporting activity. We only see the most obvious things, such as big muscles. what we don't know is that many other features will need to coordinate to achieve a final outcome. My example of sickle-cell disease was aimed to show you that a single different feature does not usually mean advantage, no matter how obvious it is.

Only one feature can't make it all with nothing else. I've already said that, but a combination can, and combinations can be passed in populations. Just like looks are a combination and those can be passed. But another point is, every advantage counts. Your sickle cell example doesn't even apply to black athletes because those athletes don't have sickle cell but they do carry the muscular advantage. Could Asians/Whites have other advantages? Of course! And that's why the races are different and have different advantages as I said.

About why white people don't run. It's not that they can't afford it. It is that they are interested in something else. they grow up doing the activities that they do, like tennis, golf and rugby. That has become a habit. And when some of them become good at some of these activities, they focus on them and become an athlete. It is similar with rugby. Since black athletes are so good at football, why don't they participate rugby? they grow up playing football. And that's what they have been accustomed to.

Definitely a factor, but as I said, not enough to make it so that every winning sprinter is black; every sprinter who made it to the finals is black. If 70% were black, then maybe, just maybe, but 100%? You're telling me that even though all races are even, that no other race, no whites, no Asians, anywhere in the world, was interested in training for that 100m medal? Only blacks wanted it and trained for it? Every year? (Even though their muscles made them more tired? LOLOL) Su Bingtian didn't win cus he didn't want the gold enough to train for it? Come on come on. Is there even a point to this conversation? You're killing yourself.

And I don't know where to get the numbers from, but I have a feeling that of all the sprinting applications to the US team every year, a large percentage are white. We just don't hear of them because they don't win.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
OK, you need to stop putting quotes in my posts. This is annoying...

This is the only way I know how to reply to your paragraphs by part.

About my mention of genetics as voodoo. I think you perfectly understand what I meant, but intentionally misquote me out of context. I meant that using genetics to explain different outcomes in sports is voodoo. I did not mean genetics in general is voodoo. you should know better than to misquote me like that.

Oh, no, you said what you said. Genetics is often used to select for sports. The Soviet Union used to do muscle biopsies on kids to see who (untrained) possessed the greatest amount of fast/slow twitch fibers to decide which sports to put them in. What decides muscle composition? Voodoo! LOL

And bringing up a few locations at the TMC won't strengthen your credibility.

Wanted to guide you so you know where to go. My credibility is strengthened by the evidence of the number of champions, of course.

And I am a PI myself. So don't worry about me being laughed out of a room...

A PI who cited a paper on how black people have poorer aerobic muscular capacity than white people to prove that people are all the same?

Please go back to my earlier posts. My position has not changed since my first post on this topic. It's all about coordination of multiple physiological partners. One advantage does not guarantee that you will out-perform others. that has been my point since post#1.

Well, every trait can be an advantage in itself although nothing can guarantee you the win. Every advantage counts in a race to the 0.01 seconds.

again, I don't believe any of the BS explanations on Asians are less competitive in certain sports because they are genetically smaller. It's about nutrition and training. Don't misquote me out of context to score cheap shots.

You might not believe it. Heck, I don't wanna believe it either, but it does, in fact, take a heavy toll on our weightlifting performance in the superheavy department. And I never said it was just size; it's a "coordination of multiple physiological partners." ;)

All about nutrition and training. LOLOL Asians don't win the 100m because we aren't eating the right things or training the right way, huh? Nobody would throw us a tip? Even countries that train other countries won't sell us a pointers? All the white guys on America's team just don't eat and train like their black colleagues... none of them do! Shame... LOL

Correlation studies on races have been done before. Show me literature.

Yeah, they do a big one every 4 years. They just finished the last one in Brazil. Did you see it?

Making cheap shots at me won't make your points stronger.
If poking holes in your argument is taking cheap shots at you, then it actually will.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
again, stop putting your words in my posts.

find evidence to support your claim. If no experiments can be done, then you should not say anything about the matter.

this is my last point on the matter.
As I scientist, I was hoping you know how to extrapolate from imperfect data. With perfect experiments, even children can make the right conclusion... children and robots. Hope you're not on that level.

But I see we've come to a rough agreement. There are differences among the races caused by different genetics. BUT although each difference may confer some advantage, they may also either be negated by weaknesses elsewhere or by the other advantages in athletes of different ethnic backgrounds. So sometimes, different populations may use their unique genetic advantages to devise different strategies to win. In the end, they may equate to having no advantage at all. But sometimes, it equates to a huge advantage, which, unless someone else finds a way to negate, can cause certain populations of people to dominate certain sports.

PS. You've made your last "point" on the matter long before this post LOL
 

SamuraiBlue

Captain
Everyone is forgetting that humans as mammals unconsciously holds back in utilizing it's full physical potential so not to over exert and damaging itself.
At the end if an athlete is able to switch off that breaker switch that athlete no matter that person's ethnicity will break the present record and gain a gold medal. Can't say what will happen to the person who did it though.
 

solarz

Brigadier
Everyone is forgetting that humans as mammals unconsciously holds back in utilizing it's full physical potential so not to over exert and damaging itself.
At the end if an athlete is able to switch off that breaker switch that athlete no matter that person's ethnicity will break the present record and gain a gold medal. Can't say what will happen to the person who did it though.

That sounds like pseudo-science to me.
 
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