Future Aircraft Carrier Thread; Designs, Ideas, Brainstorms

[Jeff Head]

SD poster Equation asked about future designs for aircraft carreirs...in particular he asked if a submarine aircraft carrier were possible in the future.

The fact is, the Japanese had a class of submarines in World War II (towards the end), the I-400 Class, that had a small hanger on deck and could carry three Aichi M6A1 Seiran sea-plane patrol aircraft that could also carry small attack loads.

They were launched from a catapult off the bow of the sub, landed on the water on their floats, and were hauled back into the submarine hanger behind the sail when underway. Three submarines were built and commissioned. They displaced 7,000 tons, which was huge for a submarine in their day. Here's how they looked:.

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...and here's the type of aircraft they carried:

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So, it is not a new idea...in fact, it is an idea that has already been built and used.

In my World War III military techno-thriller called, Dragon's Fury: World War against America and the West, I had the US, during the course of that 7-8 year war, design a class of large nuclear powered submarine aircraft carriers.

They looked like this:

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They had three elevators, two catapaults, and an aft landing spot. They could launch STOVL aircraft like the F-35 from the cat, or have them do short runs, or have them take off vertcally. They carried a mixed airwing including EV-22 Osprey AEW aircraft, SV-22 Osprey anti-submarine aircraft, and F-35B stealth strike fighters. They had a strong APAR system, and also had two 32 cell Mk-41 VLS systems

In the book, these submarines displaced over 40,000 tons.

There was also a variant that was a submarine LHD, that could launch LCACs (through well-deck bay doors on either side of the sub), helicopter and MV-22 air assault, and could also carry a small squadron of F-35Bs and EV-22 Ospreys. They looked like this:

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So, there you go. If you have any designs, ideas, etc for future carriers, post and discuss them here. But please...no Yamato Battleship Space Carrier or anything outlandish like that...at least try and make it a serious design.

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

Re: Future Aircraft Carrier Thread; Desings, Ideas, Brainstorms

In order to build a Submarine carrier three points.
One) Multiple pressure hulls the I400 class and the Russian Typhoon class SSBN both shared this feature. two smaller sub pressure hulls laid side by side bridged at key points. this gives stability, size and for a carrier a large flat deck. for a sub carrier it could not be smaller then a Typhoon class. additionally fuel and ammunition can be stored outside of crew and work areas via smaller pressure vessels. much like how Typhoon stories its missiles.
two) non conventional conning tower. a Single tower in the center would interfere with carrier operations. two smaller towers placed on the hull would allow for navigation and control radar was well as electro Optical arrays.
Three) inorder to conduct take off and landing as quickly as possible I imagine VTOL carrier. no arresting gear as it would add drag to the hull and complexity to landing recovery.

for a sub carrier I see a three primary pressure hull configuration with twin towers. the center hull is dedicated as the hanger deck the port and starboard operate as crew areas and engine spaces. imagine a Ohio class pressure hull with a Virginia pressure hull on either side. in the space between would be fuel tanks and explosive bunker hulls.

______________________________

Carrier concept two
Catamaran Super carrier.

NO not a double nimitz or ford but a carrier the size of Ford buts using a cat style hull the double hulls expanding the hanger deck space and crew space.

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

Re: Future Aircraft Carrier Thread; Desings, Ideas, Brainstorms: after thought

As I thought about it another issue came to mind for a modern submarine carrier.

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Anechoic coatings are a facet of modern subs. the problem is that the Jet blasts and rotor wash of aircraft taking off and landing is likely to add stresses on to these systems shortening there life spans and reducing there effectiveness.
there is a possible way to work around this although it does go a bit off the beaten track and cause its own issues.

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not my design I am borrowing it from the Anime FMP! this is the TDD1 now I want you to look at the froward section of the dorsal those are doors and those doors...
" A nearly silent propulsion system?"
no that on the ventral side.
In the FMP! world those doors house the flight deck they open like the doors on the shuttle. they housed a flight deck with twin cats. so it solves the risk to the tiles but here is the new issues. One the doors add drag and mechanical complexity. additionally a door system could limit the flow of air over the flight deck a essential as Aircraft engines need fresh air and choke on exhaust. so a fan system would be needed.
using doors would also reduce the risk of water on the deck causing trouble.

 

[Jeff Head]

Re: Future Aircraft Carrier Thread; Desings, Ideas, Brainstorms

One) Multiple pressure hulls the I400 class and the Russian Typhoon class SSBN both shared this feature. two smaller sub pressure hulls laid side by side bridged at key points. this gives stability, size and for a carrier a large flat deck. for a sub carrier it could not be smaller then a Typhoon class. additionally fuel and ammunition can be stored outside of crew and work areas via smaller pressure vessels. much like how Typhoon stories its missiles.

two) non conventional conning tower. a Single tower in the center would interfere with carrier operations. two smaller towers placed on the hull would allow for navigation and control radar was well as electro Optical arrays.

Three) inorder to conduct take off and landing as quickly as possible I imagine VTOL carrier. no arresting gear as it would add drag to the hull and complexity to landing recovery.

The sub I proposed was 40,000 tons. It would have been a heavy, double pressure hull vessel...large double pressure hull, not one pressure hull over two side by side hulls. Nuclear powered. Two cats (perhaps emals), three elevators. APARS, possibly DBR. The aircraft would have taken off by CAT and landed Vertically.

Large sail to the rear, similar to the Typhoon, but with a vertical landing spot behind it.

Air wing of:

20 x F-35B
06 x SV-22 ASW
04 x EV-22 AEW.

Also had a nuclear powered LHD of similar proportions built on the same hull but no cats, no APARS, and had opening to a well deck from the side of the vessel (as shown in the pics earlier).

I had mods to Virginia SSNs that would allow them to surface and use VLS celles with SM and ESSM for air defense, and other normal SSNs for ASW work.

Basically, and entire submerged CSG or ARG.

Can you imagine the power of that? It would be awesome...and also very expensive.

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

Re: Future Aircraft Carrier Thread; Desings, Ideas, Brainstorms

My thinking is based on this logic. A carrier Sub must be both a submarine and a carrier. It must have the best features of both in order to function.

Features I am addressing.

One deck operations:
The deck must be safe and efficient. it must be large enough to allow multiple aircraft to deploy off her deck. and still allow the key defensive strength of the submarine to be maintained the ability to dive under the waves. this means best way I see that is a modification of the existing deck configuration of a carrier. perhaps lacking a angled deck but retaining the main flat top. hence I imagine moving or eliminating the tower. in my mind I imagine a tower on either side of the main deck both house electro optics that feed there surface data to a flight operations center as well as electro optical para-scopes, control radars, communications and defensive anti air. the two towers would be smaller then a large singular tower. and placed much farther out using none hull penetrating technologies. It would look kinda like the upper half of the Capital Letter "H" from the front or rear. crew posted as look outs would have a bit more of a hike then normal, And both towers would need lights and illumination to allow line ups for landings.

Two Hanger operations:
You and I and every one else on this forum knows a carrier's power is aircraft. in order to keep and maintain that the ship need a hanger deck. a hanger deck that can house both aircraft under repair and aircraft ready to go.

this means a lot of room. so having basically a whole sub hull just for aircraft is my reasoning for a third pressure hull. areas for fueling, arming, repairing and storing. like you said a big boat. but along with this need there is the need for safety. Elevators are openings in the hull potential and weak points in the pressure hull. so secondary hulls like my description allows the emergency measure of sealing off the aviation hull in case of emergency. well allowing room. my goal in this thinking experiment is as large a air wing as possible. I think we both are imagining equivalent air wings but going about it in different visions

Three submarine operations:
A submarine carrier must be a submarine. Duh, it must have a power supply, Air supply, food storage space, water supply, crew spaces, defensive armament. my vision has two and a half submarines. two reactors, two aux power supply's, two water supplies, two air supplies. a single control room placed likely in the starboard side hull. torpedo systems placed in these secondary hulls. the center hull in my vision would be capped lacking a engine room and reactor in favor of more hanger. the outer hulls serving to provide propulsion with dual jet propulsers. the elevators would be placed in the about amid ships under hatches I imagine two to three. this farther effects the upper deck in the form or a false deck for my vision. the upper deck would have sets of doors. the outer portion of these doors covered with the Anechoic hull tiles. once opened you would find the true deck. which would be rated for aircraft.

Four, Fuel, armament and other things that could go boom:
My sub carrier would store fuel and armament in silos outside but accessible to the living hulls. lets face it a carrier is also a tanker. that means she has a lot of fuel. add to this though that unlike a regular carrier everything is canned in the hull. by moving the fuel and ammo out of the living hull and into individual pressure hulls I have the added advantage of using the Sea to fire break.

Five:
For both of us there are issues I don't think we have figured out answers to.

Engine tests, for example. they would be loud under the sea and could not be preformed submerged.

My configuration would demand a different sonar configuration form the bow type. as the hull would likely be oblong in shape not suited to the traditional american bow sonar.

 

[Jura The idiot]

Re: Future Aircraft Carrier Thread; Desings, Ideas, Brainstorms

...
Can you imagine the power of that? It would be awesome...and also very expensive.

Jeff, sorry I haven't read your book, but could you please summarize a concept of operations of the submersible aircraft carrier (SAC of the future here. I mean, the ship pops up, an air strike is unleashed, and ... ? the ship would submerge again or wait on the surface? Thanks!

 

[Jeff Head]

Re: Future Aircraft Carrier Thread; Desings, Ideas, Brainstorms

Jeff, sorry I haven't read your book, but could you please summarize a concept of operations of the submersible aircraft carrier (SAC of the future here. I mean, the ship pops up, an air strike is unleashed, and ... ? the ship would submerge again or wait on the surface? Thanks!

They were able to launch UAVs who communicated with a large area network established by Global Hawks, Sats, other equipment, and then and communicate with them to keep their situational awareness up.

When coming in to assist in an amphibious/air assault operation, they and the LHDs would pop up and immediately launch AEW, CAP, and strike aircraft. while the assault teams assembled and launched.

They would appear out of nowhere and then maintain their presence and control the sea around that operation. Usually two carrier variants and 2-3 LHD variants included in the TF. That means, upon surfacing, within a few minutes five aircraft were launched, and then another five, and so on.

They had SSNs protecting around the [peripheral, at some distance for ASW, they had VLS equipped subs for air defense too. The VLS vessels (including the carrier and LHD variants) launched cruise missile strikes for fire support.

Anyhow, this was several years into the war after the US had been pushed back very significantly in the Pacific, the Middle East, and Europe...and in fact the US invaded in Alaska.

Here's a link to a free PDF ebook version (complete book) of the novel I have made available for all SD members.

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[Jura The idiot]

Re: Future Aircraft Carrier Thread; Desings, Ideas, Brainstorms

I presume a submersible aircraft carrier of the future would be big enough to carry large Swimmer Delivery Vehicles

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with maybe a battalion of commandos to seize an enemy port, for example, with the air wing providing the aerial support!

 

[Kurt]

Re: Future Aircraft Carrier Thread; Desings, Ideas, Brainstorms

A cheap low tech approach would be a submersible catamaran ferry with two very large dracones containing the fuel.
The catamaran can race on the surface in order to catch and launch aircrafts and submerged at snorkel depth for transit.
The dracones are one for ship fuel and one for aircraft fuel. These are easy to hide beneath the waves as big sacks filled with fuel that are towed by the ferry to the area of operations.
Aircrafts launched by this platform are unmanned systems for deep strikes, a kind of returning cruise missile.
It's not only an aircraft carrier, but also a tanker that solves a major problem for SSK and SSG by providing these cheaper than nuclear submarines the necessary fuel for the same endurance. It will not be possible in a conflict to produce quickly large numbers of nuclear powered submarines with all the hazards involved in the nuclear departement.
The concept of austere fast catamaran carriers is discussed by Cebrowski as part of his thinking on networked forces.

The amphibious submarine landing is an old Soviet concept that can pay off via trade vessels crossing underneath the polar ice shelf. Canada and Russia would be most interested in a successful application.
Such a carrier would however be possible short ranged from a mothership with less payload than the surface ships and of use for raids and other endeavers needing total surprise.

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

Re: Future Aircraft Carrier Thread; Desings, Ideas, Brainstorms

That's a very good question Jura.
and might just be added to that list of problems yet to solve. In my concept I am not sure one could mount a SDV Hanger. A large portion of upper structure has to be retractable in order to solve the tile issue. One might be able to mount on behind one of my twin towers but then the question becomes one of if the placement of the tower and the hull doors would interfere with the hanger or flight operations. The only other way I can think of would be to deploy the SDV from inside. In this idea the SDV would be in the hanger hull. Attached to a elevator. Well submerged part of the outer doors would be opened the lift would move up to a lockout style section between the inner pressure hull and outer hull. The lockout would seal the lift would then be moved to the deck. Where the SDV would deploy.
I 'll have to think about that.