France to build new generation submarine for Pakistan

crazyinsane105

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(Janes source)


French cut for navy on sub deal

Josy Joseph
Sunday, February 19, 2006 02:25 IST



NEW DELHI: If all goes well for French arms manufacturer DCN, it would be building Scorpene submarines for the Indian Navy and a new-generation submarine for Pakistan, side by side in the same shipyard.

This scenario has caused alarm in the Indian security establishment, which is looking at ways to convey its concern to France as President Jacques Chirac arrives in New Delhi on Sunday evening for a three-day visit. Though the navy is reluctant to go on record, a senior officer said, “We will put forth our concerns.”

DCN’s audacity in approaching the Pakistan Navy and offering a new generation of submarines within months of sealing the Rs13,000 crore Scorpene deal with India has not gone down well with New Delhi.

Defence experts are keenly watching the upcoming visit of a Pakistani naval delegation, led by an admiral-rank officer, to the DCN shipyard at Cherbourg, where work on the Scorpenes has begun.

The navy says there is not much it can do in the matter as both are “commercial deals” and cannot be prevented on any technical grounds. But it says it is “unethical” of DCN to have approached Pakistan so soon after closing the deal with India, and hopes Paris will prevent it from closing the deal.

But such hopes may not amount to much. Uttam Datt, a Delhi high court advocate specialising in commercial litigation, said, “An exclusivity clause is very common in all commercial negotiations, more so in this kind of a contract, where the whole objective is to get superiority over your adversary. That advantage is lost if your adversary gets access to the same equipment.”

Datt said that unless he saw the contract, he would not be able to comment on the success of the navy’s negotiators in inserting an exclusivity clause. “But on the face of it, the navy could have technically stopped DCN from supplying similar kind of machines to Pakistan at least for some time,” he said.

DCN is no stranger to Pakistan, having supplied three Agosta 90B submarines to the country under a contract signed in 1994.

The first of the Agosta class submarines was built in the same Cherbourg shipyard. The remaining two were being assembled in Karachi when 11 French engineers working on the project were killed in a terrorist attack in May 2002.

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The French sure know how to make money. Anyway, new generation of subs? The subs will be diesel, but what new features will there be? My guess is new types of torpedoes, a better AIP system, LACM capability, and a better sonar system. What do you guys think?
 

tphuang

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Interesting, I wonder what's going to happen to the Agosta 90B deal then. Is Pakistan going to have to pay another full ToT for this new generation submarine on top of the existing payments for 90B?
 

crazyinsane105

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tphuang said:
Interesting, I wonder what's going to happen to the Agosta 90B deal then. Is Pakistan going to have to pay another full ToT for this new generation submarine on top of the existing payments for 90B?

Quite possibly. The French have handed out ToT's to both Pakistan and to India so I wouldn't be surprised if Pakistan takes this opportunity once again. Above that, the third Agosta 90B submarine will most likely be inducted in 2007 since its is being fitted with the AIP system.
 

FreeAsia2000

Junior Member
what's the name for this new generation submarine ?

DCN says on it's website that it offers 'integrated solutions'

Does that mean that this submarine will be integrated into

the new surface vessel system Pakistan is getting from America ?

Current Capabilities

The Pakistani Navy currently operates a fleet of eight diesel-electric submarines.[1] The vessels are based in Karachi, but in the future they are to be based at Port Ormara.[1] The main submarine fleet is comprised of four aging Daphne-class units, two Agosta-70 boats, as well as two modern Agosta-90B submarines, all of French design. An additional Agosta-90B is under construction. The final Agosta 90B will feature DCN's air-independent propulsion system, MESMA (Module d'Energie Sous-Marin Autonome), with which the two earlier Agosta-90B vessels will be retrofitted in the future. Pakistan has also announced its intention to construct additional submarines, in order to maintain its conventional deterrent against India.[2,3] The Pakistani Navy also has four Italian-designed midget submarines. These vessels, as well as the newest Agosta-90B boats, are being constructed at the Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works.[4]

During the 1971 war between India and Pakistan, India effectively blockaded Karachi, Pakistan's only major harbor. Pakistani efforts to curtail India's naval supremacy were largely limited to its submarine force, which was able to sink an Indian frigate.[5] Drawing on these experiences and the perceived threat posed by a larger Indian Navy, Pakistan has been continuously investing in its submarine force, within the constraints posed by its economy.

An effective sea-denial capability is of utmost importance to Pakistan, as 95 percent of its imports are transported by ship.[6] Consequently, Pakistan's Navy in general and submarine flotilla in particular are tasked with protecting Pakistani maritime interests and guaranteeing the security of its sea lanes, and thus its access, to the northern Indian Ocean/Arabian Sea.[6,7,8]

In February 2001, the Pakistani Navy publicly considered the deployment of nuclear weapons aboard its submarines, arguing that it had to keep pace with developments in India.[9] However, in January 2003 Pakistan rescinded its statement, explaining that such an endeavor would be too costly.[10] Yet, shortly afterwards, a high-ranking naval officer stated that while Pakistan currently did not plan to arms its submarines with nuclear weapons, it would do so if forced.[11] Some have alleged that Pakistan is able to mount a nuclear device onto its French-provided SM39 Exocet missiles; however, this is currently unlikely due to the difficulty involved in building a nuclear warhead small enough for the missile (the Exocet normally carries a 165 kg warhead).[12,13]
Khalid (Agosta 90B)
Displacement, tons: 1,510 surfaced
1,760 submerged (1,960 with MESMA)
Dimensions, ft (m): 221.7×22.3×17.7
(67.6×6.8×5.4)
Main machinery: Hybrid diesel-electric/MESMA AIP
Speed, knots: 12 surfaced
20 submerged
Range, miles: 8,500 at 9kt snorting; 350 at 3.5kt submerged, quadrupled at 4kt with MESMA
Complement: 36 (7 officers)
Diving depth, ft (m): 1,050 (320)
Endurance: 68 days
Weapons: 4 SSMs and 16 torpedoes; four 21in (533mm) tubes; mines in lieu of torpedoes

Sources:
Stephen Saunders, Jane's Fighting Ships 2002-2003 (Coulsdon: Jane's Information Group, 2003).
A.D. Baker, Combat Fleets of the World, p. 537.
David Miller, The Illustrated Directory of Submarines of the World (St. Paul: MBI Publishing Company, 2002), pp. 248-249.
Pakistani Navy Website,
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PAGE.htm

Hashmat (Agosta 70)
Displacement, tons: 1,490 surfaced
1,740 submerged PNS KHALID (AGOSTA 90-B CLASS)
Dimensions, ft (m): 221.7×22.3×17.7
(67.6×6.8×5.4)
Main machinery: Diesel-electric
Speed, knots: 12 surfaced
20 submerged
Range, miles: 8,500 at 9 knots surfaced
350 at 3.5 knots submerged
Complement: 59 (8 officers)
Diving depth, ft (m): 985 (300)
Endurance: Not available
Weapons: 20 SSMs and torpedoes; four 21.7in (550mm) tubes; mines in lieu of torpedoes

Sources:
Stephen Saunders, Jane's Fighting Ships 2002-2003 (Coulsdon: Jane's Information Group, 2003).
A.D. Baker, Combat Fleets of the World, pp. 537-538.
David Miller, The Illustrated Directory of Submarines of the World (St. Paul: MBI Publishing Company, 2002), pp. 248-249.
Pakistani Navy Website,
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.

Hangor (Daphne)
Displacement, tons: 869 surfaced
1,043 submerged PNS HASMAT (AGOSTA CLASS)
Dimensions, ft (m): 189.6×22.3×15.1
(57.8×6.8×4.6)
Main machinery: diesel-electric
Speed, knots: 13 surfaced
15.5 submerged
Range, miles: 4,500 at 5 knots surfaced
3,000 at 7 knots snorting
Complement: 53 (7 officers)
Diving depth, ft (m): 985 (300)
Endurance: Not available
Weapons: 12 SSMs and torpedoes; twelve 21.7in (550mm) tubes; mines in lieu of torpedoes

Sources:
Stephen Saunders, Jane's Fighting Ships 2002-2003 (Coulsdon: Jane's Information Group, 2003).
A.D. Baker, Combat Fleets of the World p. 538.
David Miller, The Illustrated Directory of Submarines of the World (St. Paul: MBI Publishing Company, 2002) p. 246-249.
Pakistani Navy Website,
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.

ACTIVE DUTY SUBMARINES
Name (Number) Class Base Builder Laid down Launched Commissioned
Hangor (S131) Hangor Karachi DCN (Naval Arsenal, Brest) January 1967 June 1969 January 1970
Shushuk (S132) Hangor Karachi DCN (C.N. Ciotat, Le Trait) January 1967 July 1969 January 1970
Mangro (S133) Hangor Karachi DCN (C.N. Ciotat, Le Trait) July 1968 February 1970 August 1970
Ghazi (ex-Cachalote)* (S135) Hangor Karachi DCN (Dubigeon, Nantes) October 1966 February 1968 January 1969
Hashmat (ex-Astrant) (S135) Hashmat Karachi DCN (Dubigeon, Nantes) September 1976 December 1977 February 1979
Hurmat (ex-Adventurous) (S136) Hashmat Karachi DCN (Dubigeon, Nantes) September 1977 December 1978 February 1980
Khalid (S137) Khalid Karachi DCNI (Cherbourg) July 1995 August 1998 September 1999
Saad (S138) Khalid Karachi Karachi Shipyard June 1998 2000 December 2003
Hamza (S139) Khalid Karachi Shipyard January 1997 2005 2006

*Purchased second-hand from Portugal.
Sources:
A.D. Baker III, Combat Fleets of the World: 2000-2001 (Annapolis: U.S. Naval Institute, 2000).
"Pakistan - Navy," Global Security Website,
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Zarar Khan, "Pakistan inducts first locally built submarine into navy," Associated Press, December 12, 2003; in Lexis-Nexis,
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.

Sources:
[1]Abhijit Bhattacharyya, "Rise of an oily Navy," The Pioneer, August 9, 2000; in "Indian daily views implications of shifting of Pak Navy bases," FBIS Document SAP20000809000038.
[2] Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Shahid Karimullah, as cited in Zarar Khan, "Pakistan navy to get four frigates from China," Associated Press, September 15, 2004; in Lexis-Nexis,
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.
[3]Edward C. Whitman, "Air-Independent Propulsion: AIP Technology Creates A New Undersea Threat," U.S. Navy Website,
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.
[4] "Pakistan - Navy," Global Security Website,
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.
[5] Jacques Isnard, "A Navy to a large extent under France's wing," Le Monde online edition,
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, May 9, 2002; in "Report details close links between France and Pakistani Navy," FBIS Document EUP20020509000030.
[6] Interview with Admiral Fasih Bokhari, Chief of Naval Staff, "The importance of the Pakistani Navy for its country's security," Naval Forces, 1999, Vol. 20, No. 1, pp. 22-25; in ProQuest Information and Learning Company,
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.
[7] Interview with Admiral Shahid Karimullah, Chief of Naval Staff, Pakistani Navy by Wolfgang Legien; in "Austral-Asian security comments: Navy chiefs interviewed by Naval Forces editor-in-chief," Naval Forces, 2003, No. 2, pp.55; in ProQuest Information and Learning Company,
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.
[8] "PN’s achievement," The News, August 27, 2002; in "Pakistan daily sees critical role for Navy as protector of country’s coastline," FBIS Document SAP20020827000076.
[9] Zahid Hussain Karachi, "Pakistan May Put Nukes on Submarines," Associated Press, February 22, 2001.
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.
[10] "Pak Rules Out Nuclear Platform for Subs, To Upgrade Navy," The Press Trust of India Limited, January 15, 2003; in Dow Jones Interactive Database.
[11] "World Roundup," The Miami Herald, January 26, 2003, p13. Herald Wire Services; in Dow Jones Interactive Database.
[12] "Pakistan launches locally built submarine," Pak News online edition,
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, August 25, 2002.
[13] "Exocet AM.39 / MM.40," Federation of American Scientists Website,
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.

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Please also see for why it's such a bad idea for India...

As regards the fact that Pakistan navy is the only enemy force against which the Indian navy is currently pitted against, it is not advisable to possess submarines from the same supplier. In this case the DCN may have agreed not to sell the Scorpene to Pakistan as has been promised to the Pakistan navy that it would not sell the Agosta- 90B to India, but it is possible for the adversary to understand the exploitation doctrine of each others submarine.

Besides, there already exists the infrastructure and assembly line including trained human resource that built the Type 209 Shishumar class submarines. It would be a great folly to allow this trained human resource of technicians and builders to be left to decay and building a new set of technical experts that would involve greater fiscal resources. At the same time it is advisable to stick to one source and prevent such a wide inventory, especially since HDW and DCN are sales rivals.

(Dr Vijay Sakhuja is Maritime Security analyst and Research Fellow, Observer Research Foundation, New Delhi.The views expressed are his own)

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DPRKUnderground

Junior Member
They might possibly be turnin the Agostas nuclear. Who knows. What Pakistan really needs is something that can fire the Babur.
 

crazyinsane105

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DPRKUnderground said:
They might possibly be turnin the Agostas nuclear. Who knows. What Pakistan really needs is something that can fire the Babur.

Pakistan doesn't need a nuclear submarine. Too costly to maintain and France won't be too keen of handing over sub nuke tech to another country. As a matter of fact, the only country that shares its sub nuke tech is Russia.
 

ajaybhutani

New Member
DPRKUnderground said:
They might possibly be turnin the Agostas nuclear. Who knows. What Pakistan really needs is something that can fire the Babur.
can u please elaborate more on babur?? is it some slbm/slcm?
 

crazyinsane105

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FreeAsia2000 said:
There isn't a lot of info on project Marlin.

Anybody have any specific info ?

Since it is a new generation sub, I doubt there will be much info available. It seems like the media will be kept in the dark about this project for some time to come. Maybe this is Pakistan's response to the ATV?

To ajaybhutani, the Babur is a cruise missile that Pakistan has in its arsenal which was finally revealed in August of 2005. Many news outlets have reported that Pakistan is planning to make an air-launched and sub launched version of the Babur and the range may also be extended to 1000 km.
 
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