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[Jeff Head]

These exercises are always carefully choreographed and there are Rules of Engagement that are used to focus the training on specific areas.

I would not take it too seriously in terms of the all-out Rubis capability versus the all-out US Navy capability. Most of the time the exercises are not about that.

If the US feels that a particular technology is an over-all threat that they are seriously threatened by, they do drastic things about is...as they did with the multi-year lease of the Swedish Gotland SSKs ten years ago when their quieting and capabilities were so pronounced.

As it is...this is really French military news and I will move the post and this respone there.

 

[A Bar Brother]

no, it doesn't, I'm sorry I didn't say what was on my mind: the Lafayette-class is under-armed as compared to the Singapore Formidable-class (the same hull if I'm not mistaken) (check also FORBIN's post right above this one) and there are other examples from traditionally strongest Navies of the World of now operating ships which could've been armed much much more strongly ... I can't believe it's about the money ... but somebody from a land-locked country might never understand this

The La Fayette class is not under-armed, it was designed as a single-mission ship unlike the Formidable which is bigger and was designed as a multi-mission ship.

To tell you the truth, the La Fayette may be a frigate, but would actually be called a corvette in other navies.

 

[Jura The idiot]

The La Fayette class is not under-armed, it was designed as a single-mission ship unlike the Formidable which is bigger and was designed as a multi-mission ship.

...

pardon me?
Displacement: 3,200 tonnes, 3,600 tonnes fully loaded
Length: 125 m (410 ft)
says

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and
Displacement: 3,200 tonnes (3,150 long tons; 3,530 short tons)
Length: 114.8 m (376 ft 8 in)
says

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and for the armament let me quote out of Jeff's #560 here:

Main Gun: 1 x 100mm (Lafayette) 1 x 76 mm (Formidable)
ASM: 8 x Exocet (Lafayette) 8 x Haproon (Formidable)
Anti-Air: 8 x Crotale CN2 (Lafayette) 32 x A50 Silver VLS (Formidable)
Secondary Gun: 2 x 20mm F2 (Lafayette), 2 x 25mm Mk 38Mod 2 (Formidable)
ASW: Non (Lafayette) 2 x 3 B515 Torpedo Launchers (Lafayette)
Helos: 1 x ASW (Lafayette), 2 x ASW (Formidable)

 

[A Bar Brother]

pardon me?
Displacement: 3,200 tonnes, 3,600 tonnes fully loaded
Length: 125 m (410 ft)
says

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and
Displacement: 3,200 tonnes (3,150 long tons; 3,530 short tons)
Length: 114.8 m (376 ft 8 in)
says

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and for the armament let me quote out of Jeff's #560 here:

The Formidable class has 2m greater draft than the La Fayette. It allows the use of anti-submarine weapons which is missing on the La Fayette. The Formidable is wider as well. The hangar bay on La Fayette is smaller.

Compared to Formidable, the La Fayette has no anti-air or anti-sub capabilities. It is a single-mission ship while Formidable can perform all types of missions.

Anyway Jeff made a small mistake there.

Anti-Air: 8 x Crotale CN2 (Lafayette)

The La Fayette has just one of those, not 8, 8 is too many on any ship. And the system itself is big enough to use up a large amount of deck space on the La Fayette.

 

[FORBIN]

Hmmm, Panther helo on Lafayette don' t get torpedoes used only for recc and Formidable one S-70 ASW/SSM, Helfire.

Hope future little FRA/UK SSM used by Wildcat and NH-90 NFH will also be uesd by Panther.

Crotale SAM launcher get 16 reloads, total 24.

Sometimes difficult for know what weapons carry naval helo in general SSM but sometimes torpedoes.

 

[Jeff Head]

The Formidable class has 2m greater draft than the La Fayette. It allows the use of anti-submarine weapons which is missing on the La Fayette. The Formidable is wider as well. The hangar bay on La Fayette is smaller.

The Formidable is derived from the Lafayette hull.

Compared to Formidable, the La Fayette has no anti-air

Not true. The Crotale is short range, but a very capable anti-air weapon for its range. In addition, its 100mm gun is a dual purpose gun and also has anti-air capabilities.

or anti-sub capabilities.

Also not true. The Lafayette can carry an NH90 ASW helicopter (France cleared its naval NH90 helos for SW work in 2013) which would allow it to perform credible ASW screening and patrols.

It is a single-mission ship

Also not so. while it is not as strong in anti-air or ASW as the Fromidable for sure, and while it's anti-air capability is a self-defense capability, it can still perform very credible multi-mission deployments. Anti-shipping, Anti-surface, ASW, Maritime Patrol, escort duties, etc., etc.

The Formidable are indeed more capable ships...providing area coverage AAW capabilities and more extensive ASW capabilities.

But make no mistake...both are frigates and I do not believe any other nation would classify a 3,200 ton vessel like the Lafayette as a corvette.

As to the Crotale, that is not a mistake...it is simply an interpretation. The eight I am referring to is the ready to launch missiles...that is what was meant...not eight separate systems. The Crotale system has 16 reloads too.

I referred to 32 A50 cells, when in actuality it is 4 x 8 cell installations grouped into 32.

 

[A Bar Brother]

The Formidable is derived from the Lafayette hull.

I know. But the internal volumes of the ships are very different, roughly 20% bigger.

Not true. The Crotale is short range, but a very capable anti-air weapon for its range. In addition, its 100mm gun is a dual purpose gun and also has anti-air capanbilities.

Yes, but I don't consider it a true anti-air frigate. That's just a simple self-defense capability.

Also not true. The Lafayette can carry an NH90 ASW helicopter (France cleared its naval NH90 helos for SW work in 2013) which would allow it to perform credible ASW screening and patrols.

I just said the ship cannot.

But make no mistake...both are frigates and I do not believe any other nation would classify a 3,200 ton vessel like the Lafayette as a corvette.

You have to look no further than the Indian Navy's Kamorta class (anti-submarine) and its follow-on version dedicated for anti-shipping. Even though smaller than the La Fayette in terms of dimensions, the Kamorta is a 3000 tonne class ship, carries a large caliber gun, 2 AK-630s, 16 Barak-1s, 2 RBU-6000, and 6 torpedo tubes. And a hangar for a helicopter. The crew complement is very similar.

If the follow-on to the Kamorta is anti-ship class, then the helicopter can perform ASW, similar to the La Fayette. It could carry AShMs instead of torpedoes and the RBU-6000. The Kamorta follow-on and the La Fayette probably perform the exact same missions.

As to the Crotale, that is not a mistake...it is simply an interpretation. It carries the eight ready to launch missiles...that is what was meant. It also has 16 reloads.

I agree. It wasn't a mistake, sorry about that.

 

[Jeff Head]

I know. But the internal volumes of the ships are very different, roughly 20% bigger.

Understood...but derived from the same hull from nonetheless.

Yes, but I don't consider it a true anti-air frigate. That's just a simple self-defense capability.

I agree with you...but your post said, "the La Fayette has no anti-air."

That is what I was responding to.

I just said the ship cannot.

Most ships cannot. Most of the torpedoe launchers and other short range ASW weapon launchers are for self defense and last ditch efforts. Most modern vessels depend most heavily on their helos. Now, the Formidable has much better ASW sensors, and it carries two ASW helos...which make it much more capable. But the Lafayette with an NH-90 can do ASW work...just not as much or as good as a Formidable.,

You have to look no further than the Indian Navy's Kamorta class (anti-submarine) and its follow-on version dedicated for anti-shipping.

I will concede that the Indian Kamorta class is indeed called a Corvette...but IMHO this is because it was indeed designed to be much more single mission centric than the Lafayette. It has a 76mm gun, but no ASMs.

It does have the RBU-6000, torpedo tubes and the helo for ASW.

Its air defense missile system is fitted for...but not with.

Nonetheless, it is a 2,800 ton vessel that the Indians are calling a corvette...I would still personally class it (and its follow on) as a frigate.

The Kamorta follow-on and the La Fayette probably perform the exact same missions.

You are probably correct.

 

[Brumby]

Yes, but I don't consider it a true anti-air frigate. That's just a simple self-defense capability.

No anti-air vs. limited anti-air are really two different state of capabilities and not the same in meaning and capabilities. Words have meaning and not according to your own definition but what is universally accepted or else we would have chaos. If you just come to terms with such basic norms it would avoid a lot of unnecessary exchanges.

 

[A Bar Brother]

I agree with you...but your post said, "the La Fayette has no anti-air."

That is what I was responding to.

That's because most navy's consider giving the anti-air designation to a ship which has relevant area defense capabilities, not just self-protection. The Indian Navy doesn't give the Kamorta an anti-air designation either.

Most ships cannot. Most of the torpedoe launchers and other short range ASW weapon launchers are for self defense and last ditch efforts. Most modern vessels depend most heavily on their helos. Now, the Formidable has much better ASW sensors, and it carries two ASW helos...which make it much more capable. But the Lafayette with an NH-90 can do ASW work...just not as much or as good as a Formidable.,

It has a 76mm gun, but no ASMs.

Kamorta is the ASW version. There is a new ASuW version ordered which will carry ASMs.

Its air defense missile system is fitted for...but not with.

That was because of the corruption scandal. They couldn't buy more Barak-1s. The ones that they had were used on bigger ships. However...

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The Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) chaired by PM Narendra Modi on Wednesday evening gave the final nod to the Rs 880 crore acquisition of Barak-I missiles, which has been hanging fire for the last six years despite successive Navy chiefs sounding the red alert over this "critical operational deficiency", said sources.

The Kamortas were not fitted with Baraks because CBI prevented their purchase.

Nonetheless, it is a 2,800 ton vessel that the Indians are calling a corvette...I would still personally class it (and its follow on) as a frigate.

A frigate is classified as a 4000+ tonne ship with multimission capabilities over here. The Shivalik class is a good example along with the Talwar class. They are capable of ASW, ASuW and AAW.