FN-6 in syrian rebel

plawolf

plawolf

Lieutenant General
asif iqbal said:
That Taliban kill was by a Canadian solider who used 50 cal round from a McMillan, it was on a ridge and it took 4 shots, the final shot was aimed so far off the target that the sniper himself couldnt believe it when he struck, it was recorded at a astounding 2.5km

A sniper from a special forces commando unit are trained easily to hit at 1,000m, less than that is normal, I mean 700-800 metres is no sweat for a well trained sniper with a good gun

But the sniper is just part of the story, the spotter must be of a similar calibre and weather conditions like wind speed, altitude, visability and pressure also play a big role

In return some Taliban fighters have used Dragunov sniper rifles to hit coalition soldiers from 1,000m away, on one occasion one 7.62mm round came through a RAF Chinnok windscreen and hit the pilot in the head who then flew his helicopter all the way back home bleeding from his head, he survived due to his bulletproof helmet which was partially penetrated

Sniper schools have really upped thier tempo after the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and here has been some remarkable shots
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The behaviour of the target is also a major factor when you are aiming at someone over a km away as depending on condictions, weapon and round used, it can take the round between 3-5 seconds to reach the target, so unless your target is stationary, you will have to both calculate the bullet flight time and anticipate where he is going to be when the bullet arrives.

So no, I have have to dispute the idea that anyone can hit a man sized target 'easily' at over a km away. It can be done, and done with decent reliability, but only if the conductions are right and the target is cooperative.

Your example of hitting a helo pilot in the head with a sniper rifle is more a case of blind luck rather than skill. It was either a case of someone taking a pot shot and getting a one in a million hit, or a case of the helo being unlucky enough to be flying very low and almost directly at the sniper making the shot relatively straight forward. In either scenario, luck would have played the biggest part, which is why there was no repeat shot like it.

I think Afganistan and Iraq have been a mixed bag for snipers tbh. In the early years, with the insurgents and Taliban fighting the Americans head on, it would have been great for snipers as they would have had plenty of time and opportunity to hone their skills. But as the wars wound down into mainly suicide attacks and pot shots, I think they would have been bad for snipers as they are deployed on missions for the majority of their time with pretty much nothing to do, so on average, they may well have fired fewer rounds than before they were deployed.

I mean, if the wars in Afganistan and Iraq were so good for sniper skills of those participating, how come it was the Chinese who won the sniper world championships last year?
 
SteelBird

SteelBird

Colonel
plawolf said:
The behaviour of the target is also a major factor when you are aiming at someone over a km away as depending on condictions, weapon and round used, it can take the round between 3-5 seconds to reach the target, so unless your target is stationary, you will have to both calculate the bullet flight time and anticipate where he is going to be when the bullet arrives.

So no, I have have to dispute the idea that anyone can hit a man sized target 'easily' at over a km away. It can be done, and done with decent reliability, but only if the conductions are right and the target is cooperative.

Your example of hitting a helo pilot in the head with a sniper rifle is more a case of blind luck rather than skill. It was either a case of someone taking a pot shot and getting a one in a million hit, or a case of the helo being unlucky enough to be flying very low and almost directly at the sniper making the shot relatively straight forward. In either scenario, luck would have played the biggest part, which is why there was no repeat shot like it.

I think Afganistan and Iraq have been a mixed bag for snipers tbh. In the early years, with the insurgents and Taliban fighting the Americans head on, it would have been great for snipers as they would have had plenty of time and opportunity to hone their skills. But as the wars wound down into mainly suicide attacks and pot shots, I think they would have been bad for snipers as they are deployed on missions for the majority of their time with pretty much nothing to do, so on average, they may well have fired fewer rounds than before they were deployed.

I mean, if the wars in Afganistan and Iraq were so good for sniper skills of those participating, how come it was the Chinese who won the sniper world championships last year?
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First of all, I think sniper rifle rounds mostly fly less than 2 seconds to reach their targets. Consider the velocity of the projectiles between 700 ~ 900 meter per second, and targets are usually within 1500 meters. Secondly, have you ever heard of Vietnam war that many north Vietnamese guerrilla who mostly equipped with SKS rifle shoot down South Vietnamese and U.S helicopters? Those SKS only have iron sight! Finally, The Chinese won the championships because the scored the highest. In real combat, you don't need to score 10 to kill a target.

There are a lot of FN-6 in Cambodia. Anyone wants to smuggle some to Syria? :p
4XCgQpX.jpg
 
TerraN_EmpirE

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
The time a round takes to reach its target varies based on range atmospheric conditions muzzle velocities and trajectories at longer ranges you even have to add in the curve of the earth.
When discussing snipers in particular wars one must bare in mind the no two conflicts are identical. Technology, Terrain and logistics all factor to make and change dynamics. Engagements in iraq differs from those in Afganistan Iraq being more urban Afganistan being more mountains. Veitnam being jungle and urban. The long range shots in Iraq were in situations where the sniper team happened to spot open trouble brewing in the cities opening and made the call. Afganistan had more kong range fights by simple range of mountains. To pull long shots they needed a well built gun and quality ammo a great team and no small amount of luck.
By contrast a lot of the kills made by insergent snipers in Iraq were much more about stealth. Getting in close and killing before the enemy knows what's happened. Remember Simo "white death" Hayha. The Finnish sniper who achieve 540 kills using a iron sights on a bolt action or a SMG. The critical factors stealth marksmanship and the lay of the land. Such can still be done today.
 
MwRYum

MwRYum

Major
Blackstone said:
Reports of M99 accuracy cast doubts on how successful it can snipe targets at 1km with consistency.
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Not sure if that's the 12.7mm Russian rounds or .50 cal version, but high-grade rounds would be a thing of luxury for the rebels, plus M-99 has a reportedly 2 MOA performance so I won't put much hope on its performance...though something like that used to cripple a pickup truck's engine block from 600m away or flooring a HVT in Type IV grade body armor is still feasible.
 
plawolf

plawolf

Lieutenant General
MwRYum said:
Not sure if that's the 12.7mm Russian rounds or .50 cal version, but high-grade rounds would be a thing of luxury for the rebels, plus M-99 has a reportedly 2 MOA performance so I won't put much hope on its performance...though something like that used to cripple a pickup truck's engine block from 600m away or flooring a HVT in Type IV grade body armor is still feasible.
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The PLA did not even have match grade 50 cal ammo when the 2 MOA figures first came out, so that would have been achieved with standard HMG ammo.

The Barrett has a reported 2-3 MOA when using HMG ammo in semi-auto mode, so its not that different.

The physics of rifles is well understood enough and China has more than accurate enough tooling to make a decently accurate rifle and barrel that I think odds are good the M99's accuracy will massively improve if you use top quality ammo with it.

It won't win any accuracy awards, but it should be competitive with the likes of the Barrett.

Besides, I doubt the rebels have anyone with enough skill to make the most of super accurate rifles even if they had them, and I also doubt hand loaded match grade ammo would be all that widely available in Syria, so even if they had such rifles and men skilled enough to take full advantage, they would probably be forced to used HMG ammo, which would produce a poor spread even with the best rifles and snipers firing.
 
asif iqbal

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
plawolf said:
Besides, I doubt the rebels have anyone with enough skill to make the most of super accurate rifles even if they had them, and I also doubt hand loaded match grade ammo would be all that widely available in Syria, so even if they had such rifles and men skilled enough to take full advantage, they would probably be forced to used HMG ammo, which would produce a poor spread even with the best rifles and snipers firing.
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that is not true, the rebels have a increasing number of ex-Syrian army officers and soldiers joining them, defections from Assads regime have included high ranking officers and generals
 
L

Lion

Senior Member
Didn't the FN-6 SAM pass off with flying colors in Syria Civil War? The western countries dare not rubbish this missile report because the video of downing the syria government helo by this missile is quickly circulate in the internet.

But comes to this rifle, there is no way , they could have video it and loaded it on net. So the west is quick to fabricate some nonsense to smear this rifle performance. In western opinion, anything from China is inferior. Oh ya, at least FN-6 can't be inferior in western media.
 
MwRYum

MwRYum

Major
Lion said:
Didn't the FN-6 SAM pass off with flying colors in Syria Civil War? The western countries dare not rubbish this missile report because the video of downing the syria government helo by this missile is quickly circulate in the internet.

But comes to this rifle, there is no way , they could have video it and loaded it on net. So the west is quick to fabricate some nonsense to smear this rifle performance. In western opinion, anything from China is inferior. Oh ya, at least FN-6 can't be inferior in western media.
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If they want to spin it against MIC weapons in this case, they can say FN-6 against transport helo w/o ECM, IR suppressor at the exhaust or flare dispensers is just child's play. In the case of MANPAD, the West more worried about proliferation of such things beyond national armies, as most of the airlines are, well, w/o ECM, IR suppressor at the exhaust or flare dispensers installed.

As to sniper rifles, China got serious about this field only a few years ago, manufacture of sub-MOA sniping system requires the kind of design experiences of the weapon, high-grade precision engineering, sub-MOA precision optics and match-grade ammo...the most difficult problem their military-industrial complex faces is making something like that without PLA backing, companies have to find other ways to acquire the capital, make something that "might" garner small-size orders from police and PAP, and perhaps generate PLA interest in issuing requirements for something like that.

At least, now there're news that working on the munitions, but gun designs are still left to be desired; then there's the optics, which yet to show any marked improvement in this field.
 
TerraN_EmpirE

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
MwRYum said:
IAs to sniper rifles, China got serious about this field only a few years ago, manufacture of sub-MOA sniping system requires the kind of design experiences of the weapon, high-grade precision engineering, sub-MOA precision optics and match-grade ammo...the most difficult problem their military-industrial complex faces is making something like that without PLA backing, companies have to find other ways to acquire the capital, make something that "might" garner small-size orders from police and PAP, and perhaps generate PLA interest in issuing requirements for something like that.

At least, now there're news that working on the munitions, but gun designs are still left to be desired; then there's the optics, which yet to show any marked improvement in this field.
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I am not too up on Sams. But In the Rifles I can comment. A high caliber rifle has a lot of things working against it especialy Super magnum class like fifty cals. Any one of those issues can cause the weapon to preform in a manor that is less then satisfactory. If The scope or Scope rings are sub par or not properly mounted the Optics can easly shake themselves off zero or even worse into bits and peices. The weapon has to be maintained regularly and properly with barrel and parts changes more often then conventional weapons due to the higher presures, and Rounds have to be of a high quality and proper spec in order to ensure proper operation.
Any one of these issues can cause the weapon to suffer in performence.
 
L

Lion

Senior Member
MwRYum said:
If they want to spin it against MIC weapons in this case, they can say FN-6 against transport helo w/o ECM, IR suppressor at the exhaust or flare dispensers is just child's play. In the case of MANPAD, the West more worried about proliferation of such things beyond national armies, as most of the airlines are, well, w/o ECM, IR suppressor at the exhaust or flare dispensers installed.

As to sniper rifles, China got serious about this field only a few years ago, manufacture of sub-MOA sniping system requires the kind of design experiences of the weapon, high-grade precision engineering, sub-MOA precision optics and match-grade ammo...the most difficult problem their military-industrial complex faces is making something like that without PLA backing, companies have to find other ways to acquire the capital, make something that "might" garner small-size orders from police and PAP, and perhaps generate PLA interest in issuing requirements for something like that.

At least, now there're news that working on the munitions, but gun designs are still left to be desired; then there's the optics, which yet to show any marked improvement in this field.
Click to expand...

Using against chaff and defence is another thing. Able to hit it accurately is another thing that must be achieved first.

In 2002, Terrorism try to shoot down one Boeing 757 airliner and the SA-7 missile completely miss its target.

From Syria incident, you all can see, FN-6 is a very robust and accurate missile. Rebel with little training easily brought down the military helo. And mind you , from the video you can in fact, the helo is quite a distance from the firing point. I will say its near the max 6km of its intended range and it still perform flawlessly.
 
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