Firearms advanced technologies successful and failed

Discussion in 'Military History' started by TerraN_EmpirE, Dec 25, 2018.

  1. Iron Man
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    Right, it's basically a .270 WSM. I'm not sure how this makes it a battle rifle class ammo or gain the ability to outpenetrate the 30.06 AP round.
     
  2. Jura
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    thanks but what I've meant is if it's like normal to be able to stand up and fight after being repeatedly shot with a pistol, actually I recently saw a vid in which a guy under similar circumstances was able to get on his car and drive away (!), or an individual capable of it has to be doped?

    I guess dumdum bullets would change this, that's why I also asked about the police ammo
     
  3. TerraN_EmpirE
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    TerraN_EmpirE Tyrant King

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    A dumdum is crude form of round akin to hollow points a expanding bullet type meant to cause larger damage by hydrodynamic shock effects. I E on Contact with fluids like say the 75% that make up a human body they expand.
    For Military such bullet types are highly restricted. There are expansive bullets in service but only for aerodynamic effects. Basically they are not designed to expand on penetration, the expansion is an unintended side effect of characteristics used by the bullet to gain more aerodynamic flight.
    Law enforcement and Counter terrorist units have no such restrictions they are allowed to use Hollow points. Most police agencies use hollow point in pistols. Despite the expansion effect they are not able to instantly kill.
     
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  4. TerraN_EmpirE
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    TerraN_EmpirE Tyrant King

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    Well close to it.
    On battle rifle class. This is a higher pressure round type. The terms assault rifle and battle rifle are really sorta more hype than practical but generally a assault rifle is a rifle with selective fire that fires a intermediate caliber round that is, high velocity medium to low caliber, low mass ammunition.
    A Battle rifle is a round that fires a full power rifle round that is higher velocity medium to high caliber with a higher mass. This .277 caliber round would have a higher mass and higher velocity.
    Hence the comparison to 270 WSM.

    Now as to penetration vs the M2 30.06 round this has more to do with the construction of the bullet.
    The M2 30.06 was classed as AP for the same reason Norinco exports of 7.62x39mm is also classed as AP, And Banned in the US from import.

    Which is an old definition that gets regurgitated. Basically it has a steel core. But SS109, M855 and M855A1 and M80A1 all have steel cores. Now back in the 1940s 1950s even into the 1960s and even into 1970s that was enough. But its the eve of the 2020s and guess what, It’s not. As you can see in this video the so called AP Norinco 7.62x39mm fails to penetrate.
    What happened is that the steel core is not dense enough to break through. All it’s kinetic energy is turned against itself and poof. The jacket and core are pulverized into powder.
    Now how do you get around this? Well you could try and go bigger a bigger round has more mass and if you go big enough that vest will be smashed. Of course the problem is that is impractical. There are some .300win mag AR15 type rifles but they are heavy. Uncontrollable in rapid fire and pack small magazines that are difficult to carry large amounts of ammo.

    The other way to go is to look back at tanks.
    In the later period of world war 2 the German Panthers and Tigers caused the M4 Sherman Problems. The 75mm gun in Sherman could be long barreled to a point but it’s AP shell like most tanks of its age was a solid shell.
    Now they could have gone up to a 76mm and they did but still had problems penetrating until they went to high velocity Armor piercing shells. These are built of a solid high density core of tungsten carbide alloy surrounded by a lighter density metal jacketed in a copper.

    This scaled down is basically the description of the M61 round and the basis of other modern AP rounds a high density tungsten core jacketed in copper. As that impacts a strike plate of ceramic materials the copper is pulverized but that tungsten core is dense enough that it keeps going it isn’t destroyed it keeps going just like a tanks Sabot round it has the mass and velocity to work through the armor and get to the soft fleshy material under it.
    That’s why it would out penetrate M2 30.06. Because M2 30.06 was designed to penetrate thin steel plate of the type found and used in the 1930s but can’t coupe with modern composite armor. You might as well compare a 120mm shell to a world war 2 vintage gun type.
    Because in its day it was AP but today vs modern types it comes up lacking.
     
  5. Iron Man
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    Yes, I'm well-aware of the distinction. The 6.8mm being a larger caliber doesn't mean it is "battle rifle" caliber, which has usually been understood to be 7.62x51, 30-06, 7.62x54, 7.92x57, etc.

    Actually, 30-06 AP is also tungsten. And just because a round is a newer "AP" round doesn't mean it can automatically bypass the laws of physics. You are basically claiming here that "6.8mm is a new round, obviously it's going to out-penetrate the old 30-06 AP". First of all, there is no current requirement for a new 6.8mm AP version. Second, even if there is/will be, you will need to prove it can out-penetrate the 30-06 AP version by testing. Third, the 6.8mm is not even intended to replace the 7.62x51 round, it's intended to replace the 5.56x45 round, so playing up the 6.8mm's abilities and comparing it to full-size rounds is not even necessary, nor was it ever intended by the US military.
     
  6. TerraN_EmpirE
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    TerraN_EmpirE Tyrant King

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    No it’s not. The rating on the Level IV armor is vs the M2 30.06 round that is just manganese magnesium alloy steel.
    https://www.ammochannel.com/30-06-30-cal-m2-ap-armor-piercing/ After 1958 the US had switched over to 7.62x51mm which is again a match in performance to 30.06. They never introduced a 30.06 round for the US with a tungsten core.

    Second the there are two requirements XM1186 which is a general issue round based off the same reasoning as the Improved penetration round IE M855A1 and the XM1184 which is listed only as “Special Purpose” if you go back and look at the talk of infantry small arms around that time however there was specific mention of work on AP. As such its not that there isn’t any it’s that it’s just not listed yet.
    https://taskandpurpose.com/army-interim-combat-service-rifle
    However at the moment they announced going full bore on NGSW they also told the US Congress that the 5.56x45mm round was not able to defeat Level IV. For a short period a requirement was issued for a Interim Service rifle in 7.62x51mm. However in very short order this was canceled as the service stated it was already working on a long term solution the NGSW program. https://taskandpurpose.com/army-round-punches-5-56mm-resistant-armor

    Third you are correct it is at the moment not being talked of one or the other vs 7.62x51mm.
    The directly addressed weapons to be replaced are the 5.56x45mm M4A1 and M249. However the effective range of the M4A1 is listed by the Army at between 300 to 500 meters. These weapons are projected for effective ranges double that. Between 600 to 1000 meter. The effective range of a 7.62x51mm is about 600-800 meters.
    If they are at double the effective range of the 5.56x45mm then they are operating at ranges on par 600 meters to 25% better 1000 meter than 7.62x51mm If that is the case then 7.62x51mm is not as relevant.
    https://www.armytimes.com/news/your...ide-the-army-s-plan-to-ditch-the-m4-and-5-56/
    7.62x51mm was replaced as the main issue of US infantry in the forms of the M14 and M60 by the M16 in the 1960s, M4 in the 2000’s and M249 in the 1980s.
    They have only continued in specialized roles. The DMR rifle M14, M110 Sniper use in M24, M40, M110, Special Operations in Afghanistan adopted it back for longer range engagement by the Mk17, armored and aircraft weapons in the M240 and M134, ceremonial use in M14 and as a fire support weapon M60, Mk48 and M240.
    However in recent years some of this has started to change.
    The Marines and Socom have begun looking to a heavier GPMG aimed at replacing M60, M240 with a weapon in .338 Norma magnum.
    US Socom has tested and looks to adopt the 6.5mm Creedmoor round to rechamber M110 , Mk20 Scar rifles and Mk48 mod2.
    Snipers in the US Army, USMC, USAF, USN, US SOCOM have moved to the M2010, Mk 13 mod 7 and Barrett MRAD Advanced Sniper rifle in primary .300 win mag.
     
  7. Iron Man
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    Never? Cuz there's a bunch for sale on Gunbroker from multiple sellers:
    https://www.gunbroker.com/All/search?Keywords=30 06 armor piercing

    Not sure how any of this changes the fact that the 6.8mm is meant to replace the 5.56x45 and not the 7.62x51, which means there is no need to compare it to either that round or the 30-06 AP round, nor is there any requirement that the 6.8mm should have superior penetration capabilities vis-a-vis the 30-06 round with respect to level 4 armor.
     
  8. TerraN_EmpirE
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    TerraN_EmpirE Tyrant King

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    So wait some Yahoo on gun broker claims its a tungsten cored round so it must be true? BULL SIT
    It’s either steel cored of someone loaded 7.62x51mm M61 tips in 30.06 cases. Which is like cross breading a unicorn with an Arabian.

    Level IV standard is set on defeating M2 30.06 That is the bullet that set the standard not some mythical 30.06 being sold by someone on the inter webs. The rating is to beat M2 set by the NIJ then adopted by others.
    https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/223054.pdf

    M2 AP
    https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30026205


    I never said superior I Said it should penetrate.
    But you keep trying to make the 30.06 both less and more than it is. Ineffective vs Level IV plate, yet More powerful than 7.62x51mm, In both You are Wrong.
    M2 AP was the standard set for Level IV armor with a steel core. 7.62x51mm M61 is Tungsten cored and beat Russian Level IV plate in a informal test by In Range in the videos I provided. 7.62x51mm NATO is spec’s to match 30.06.


    The Question isn’t if it’s superior to 7.62x51mm or 30.06 because you have miss judged the rounds in question.
    A Tungsten cored 7.62x51mm round will penetrate.
    The question is if it’s superior to 5.56x45mm with a Tungsten core.
     
  9. Iron Man
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    I like how you use the singular "Yahoo", when there are several yahoos on Gunbroker selling tungsten-cored M2s. I guess they're all liars and you're the only one in the know.

    Here's another yahoo on another site: https://www.nereloading.com/index.php/rare-30-caliber-black-tip-ap-projectiles.html

    In fact if you google it there are yahoos all over the internet saying there are M2s with tungsten. The actual fact of the matter is that pre-1942 M2 cores have tungsten in them, and that post-1942 the US military switched to a molybdenum-manganese core that equaled the tungsten in penetrative ability. Apparently there is still alot of tungsten M2s around, given so many yahoos selling them. ;)

    Regardless, your assertion that tungsten penetrates and others don't is not some fact of physics or some kind of ballistics law of nature. Tungsten may penetrate better all other things being equal, but actual round penetration depends on a whole host of factors, bullet composition being only one of them.

    Please list ANYWHERE where I said 30-06 is automatically superior to 7.62x51. After you do that, tell me why that even makes a remote bit of difference when 6.8 isn't designed to out-penetrate EITHER the 7.62x51 OR the 30-06. Your claim is that 6.8 will penetrate level 4 armor. You have not demonstrated this at all.
     
  10. TerraN_EmpirE
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    TerraN_EmpirE Tyrant King

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    Again you source sales.
    Not documentation.
    So here https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30026205
    And they did, all of 4% Wow a whole 4% of the round. With such a low percentage it didn’t make a difference at the time because its such a small amount not to matter.
    Before you break into a victory lap modern AP tungsten cored rounds are 84% Tungsten.
    M2 AP will punch 10.6mm in a 22.2mm RHA plate at 91m

    A modern 5.56x45mm M995 Tungsten cored round will penetrate 12mm of RHA at 100m

    A M993 7.62x51 Tungsten cored AP round penetrates 16mm of RHA at 400m a 20mm RHA plate at 100m
    https://www.nammo.com/globalassets/pdfs/ammobook/nammo_ammo-handbook_2016.pdf
    Wait so a 5.56mm round will go deeper than a 30.06 round!! My god in heaven
    You keep coming back and listing 30.06 yet I keep pointing out that the M2 is the inferior round now moved goal post. The 7.62x51mm AP round has a much higher Tungsten content than the M2 30.06.
    Vs Any Ammo type below this Level IV plate and it’s equivalents are all but invincible. You need to go to .338NM to penetrate.

    Next Okay So TE that does not mean that 6.8 “Bleed-moor”would AP any better than a 7.62 or 5.56x45mm
    A good quality Level IV M995 round at 100m.
    M995 5.56x45mm has a penetrator that weights 2g Yet against some lower quality Level IV plate it will. The reason it’s just a little to light. But for consistency you need more weight more tungsten but the 5.56x45mm round doesn’t have much room to grow.
    A M993 7.62x51 Tungsten cored AP round has a penetrator weight of 5.4g. Clearly enough mass.
    It will defeat Level IV armor this is however an older round. Meant to be replaced by XM1158 which has an even larger core.
    Okay so? A 6.8mm round is a low drag round with higher velocity than 5.56mm it can hold a larger Tungsten Penetrator in theory it should weigh as much as 7 grams that gives The potential for a 5g penetrator which is why I say it should penetrate.
     
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