Firearms advanced technologies successful and failed

Discussion in 'Military History' started by TerraN_EmpirE, Dec 25, 2018.

  1. Mohsin77
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    Mohsin77 Junior Member
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    According to DARPA it was a .50 round: https://www.darpa.mil/news-events/2015-04-27

    "Fitting EXACTO’s guidance capabilities into a small .50-caliber size is a major breakthrough and opens the door to what could be possible in future guided projectiles across all calibers.”"

    Their guidance and control system is classified, so we can't really be sure if it requires a smoothbore platform. I was just suggesting that miniature smoothbores may be useful.

    In any case, once this tech is worked out, only then will we max out the ultimate potential of gunpowder propelled bullets.
     
  2. TerraN_EmpirE
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    TerraN_EmpirE Tyrant King

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    12.7mm is .50 cal inch the Browning. 50 used by the U.S. is 12.7x99mm the Russian is 12.7x109mm caliber is listed a number of ways. Metric or Imperial.
    Smooth bore isn't the guidance it's the rifling of the barrel and it has to be smooth for the round they tested because of the construction of the round. self_guided_bullet-tm-tfb.jpg
    Its shape is like this to house the optical seaker, micro guidance system and at the back actuators to allow it to adjust it's trajectory in flight. Sandia_Labs_Self-Guided_Bullet_.50_BMG_4.jpg it's seated in the round like a APFSDS round.
    Because the round is guided they didn't need to stabilize the round with rifling this allowed them to make the round of a harder material. It also allowed a tougher barrel to take a higher pressure point in the ammo and eliminate rifling erosion.

    The thing I am trying to make clear is this isn't a practical General issue system. It's basically a guided tank round in miniature. The level of machining and the ability of The electronics to withstand The G forces of being fired from a gun are very high. To the point where in this might as well be a guided missile.
    The term Gold plated comes to mind.

    The function of this round is if you need to make first hit kill on a target beyond 2 miles beyond 3 miles.
    This is why the round is based of a 12.7mm it already has the theoretical reach. The longest confirmed kill by a Sniper was a Canadian SF sniper with a McMillan Tac 50 at 2.9 Miles. The outrageous distance being due to the large size and power of the .50 which was originally an Anti-aircraft gun. It's long reach being a point of start and in line with the aim of these technologies. That is giving a sniper a ability to guarantee a hit well beyond what is normally possible.
    By that's not technically possible below a set threshold. .338LM 8.6x70mm will get you past a 1.5 Mile shot but for the ranges this is looking you need to go bigger. That's either .408 Chetac (10.36x77mm), .416 Barret (10.6x83mm), .50 BMG 12.7x99mm, 12.7x109mm DShk or 14.5x114mm (.57cal). They started with .50 because DARPA is the US DOD and .50 is in service The EXACTO programs objective is to introduce a version that could be dropped into an existing weapon like the M107A1 and range out to >3 miles. The Russians claim they are working on the same idea with a range out to 6.2 miles (I have my doubts on their ability in that without resorting to a Cannon) but somewhere in that 3-6 Mile range should give you an idea of what we are talking about.
    The thing is though that's a theoretical shot it's never happened in RL. No one has made a better than 3 miles shot hell the longest confirmed kill by an MBT was 2.9 Miles. If you need to target something past 3 miles thats artillery or an Air strike.
    For the vast majority of sniping depending on the caliber you don't reach out that far. The most prolific sniper in history made most of his kills with a submachine gun.
    Kills past 1,600m are not mythical creatures but not everyday events either. So optimally what you want is to make it so that the Sniper can easily make those 1,450 meter hits and has an easier time when he needs to make that 4km hit.
    Beyond that is where you save that special golden bullet for that once in a century mission HVT. It's the "Dear, Ayman al Zawahiri Greatings from the U.S. government." Bullet.
     
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  3. Mohsin77
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    Mohsin77 Junior Member
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    In common parlance, when someone says "12.7" though, it is usually understood as 12.7×108, which is a russian round, hence the confusion.

    Regular .50 cal is just referred to as .50.

    lolz, I know dude. I'm saying the guidance system that DARPA is developing can also be applied to smoothbore platforms (like in the case of the Sandia round whose picture you posted.) As far as I know, the guidance is still classified and we don't know if the DARPA EXACTO project uses smoothbore sabots or rifled rounds.

    Neither was the Me 262 in WWII... And yet, jet fighters became very practical later on.
     
  4. TerraN_EmpirE
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    TerraN_EmpirE Tyrant King

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    I like to be precise but there is not enough sold information on the EXACTO program or round. We know it was supposed to be routed to a .50 caliber round but it's not nessisarily BMG.
    Was applied. After that is an unknown. The Smooth bore was necessary for the round. The Sandia was announced in 2012 The EXACTO demo was 2014. Unless there was a second development Sandia is EXACTO.
    First as Me262 hit the Sky in 1944 For its first missions the British were already preparing there first her fighter and inside a few months they had the Gloster F3. Meteor flying. The fact is it wasn't "Later" it was practical then.
    But the Me262 was rushed the Germans were desperate. They had been desperate from day one of the war. They are noted for the Wonder weapons of the war but the Allies had much of the same the difference was that the Allies took more time. They trailed their wonder weapons away from the front. They took their time to iron out the problems before they fielded them, They had the time to. The German airforce was broken when they flew Me 262 the Allies pushing them back on both sides.
    So they rushed. But I have digressed.

    This brings us to TRL technology readiness level. Guided bullets at best are a 6. They have been demonstrated but need more refining. No way practical for field use. Even then the mission for them is not pressing.

    Precision Guided Firearms are at about an 8. Meaning they are coming along near term. They need refinement better security. But in Track for the 2020s. PGF is a prerequisite for the smart bullet. But the smart bullet isn't for the PGF and between the two 99.99% of possible mission use would be served by the PGF vs the Guided bullet.
     
  5. Mohsin77
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    Mohsin77 Junior Member
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    Quote: "EXACTO also uses conventional .50 BMG"

    https://www.guns.com/news/2012/07/2...tasked-ordnance-optically-laser-guided-bullet

    Another quote: "The principles used for EXACTO are very different than Sandia’s laser-guided bullet, and it overcomes some of its possible shortcomings."

    ^ same source.

    We don't know that for EXACTO:

    "With DARPA’s system, there isn’t a need to roll out completely new hardware. And it gives snipers the option of using traditional ammunition and manual aiming systems."

    ^ this is why we can't be sure their system is a smoothbore round, like Sandia. I'd rather not assume.

    ... so in other words, they should've instead just built more FW-190s, because they were more practical than the Me 262?

    Yea, my point exactly, lol.

    I think you're missing the point here, which stands regardless of the Me262. Technologies which aren't practical today may become practical tomorrow.

    I was talking about the ultimate potential of gunpowder weapons when I replied to the other member (theoretically). It has nothing to do with what's "practical" today.
     
  6. TerraN_EmpirE
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    TerraN_EmpirE Tyrant King

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    Kinda neat these guys did some other mud tests including on a number of AR15 flavors from A1 spec to Modern and the DI AR have done very very well where the AKs they have tested have done to the contrary. Well now they have a civil version of the HK416.


    The results not as successful as HK would have hoped.
     
  7. TerraN_EmpirE
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    TerraN_EmpirE Tyrant King

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    Here is the DI AR
     
  8. TerraN_EmpirE
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    TerraN_EmpirE Tyrant King

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    Moving a conversation here as it’s is less to do with that subject matter of the QST-11
    First, a tungsten cored 30.06 would likely Penetrate a Chinese, Russian or American Level IV plate.
    Watch this video


    Now Carl and Ian know better they keep saying that M855A1 and M80A1 are Tungsten cores. They aren’t.
    They are hardened steel core copper jacketed.
    M80A1 Steel cored did not penetrate the plate they tested against. However M61 which is an AP round with a tungsten core and 7.62x51MM NATO did.
    7.62x51mm was designed to match 30.06 and the standard for the Level IV rating is to defeat a M2 Hardened steel cored 30.06 round not a more exotic cored round. So beating M2 is like beating M80A1 only less copper more lead. But if you put an M61 projectile in a 30.06 case and shot it at a Level IV plate it would penetrate.

    If this was 6.8x43mm SPC I would say you @Iron Man were absolutely correct that 7.62x51 or 30.06 would easily out perform. However the 6.8mm projectile being pushed by the US Army IS NOT SPC!

    In a conventional cased configuration the weapons that have been built for this are based off 7.62x51mm parents. A7A7363A-2DAD-495E-A543-80511353FE53.png
    The round has characteristics on par with .270 Winchester short magnum, in a metric conversion that would be about 7x63mm.
    This is part of why the weapon program is controversial among defense watchers. The round is almost identical in size.
    96CF1B84-8A21-43F3-ADDF-0A88F3F469CA.png
    The silvery round on the right is a 6.8mm conventional case version. The other rounds? 7.62x51mm sits next to it the other is 5.56x45mm NATO. So with this in mind we are talking about a battle rifle class ammo.
    On a side note US SOCOM has started adopting 6.5mm Creadmore ammo for its battle rifle and Mk48 Mgs it gives higher range than 7.62x51mm a flatter trajectory and less felt recoil. The US Army may be trying to get the same here.

    In the XM1186 configuration it is unlikely to penetrate Level IV ceramic plates as the core is steel.
    However the XM1184 is called “Special Purpose” it could be an AP round with a tungsten core which should AP Level IV armor.
     
  9. Jura
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    Jura General

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    something I wanted to ask:

    how is it possible a guy had been shot multiple times, by what looks like a Beretta to me, into let's say torso,

    and were able to get up and charge; was he so drugged perhaps?? or it has something to do with the ammo cops used?

    (the footage is obviously graphic so just youtube ID here: 9NwWado4SVY
    and in case it didn't work, the link to where I noticed: https://www.snafu-solomon.com/2019/09/knife-attack-on-cop-this-is-why-21-feet.html
    careful, it's truly scary)
     
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  10. TerraN_EmpirE
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    TerraN_EmpirE Tyrant King

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    @Jura
    1) it’s a Glock.
    2) any number of factors can come into play. Narcotics included.
    The Human body is very resilient on its own. Evolution of the mammal form has resulted in a organism that is able to absorb a significant amount of damage and still remain living. See any survivors of forced amputation in combat or in automobile accident as an example.
    As such there are only three ways to actually kill a human.

    The first is to produce significant blood loss. A weapon like a knife or small arms like a pistol can do this but it’s rather inefficient. This method can take time. Even an individual shot in a major organ like the heart can take a while to die.
    The amount of trauma needed to induce death is fairly significant and the cause in this form is blood pressure loss. The Human body is designed to try and prevent loss of that pressure. As such it could take hours before the officer having been stabbed or attacker having been shot losses enough blood pressure to die. Unless a major artery has been damaged it could take hours even days. Even if one is hit it could take minutes to hours.

    The second is to produce damage to the central nervous system. This is SIGNIFICANTLY more complicated. Think of the nervous system as a computer the brain is the mother board. The CPU is the brain stem it’s the most important portion of the brain any you can loos everything else and remain living <although not able to do anything> but that part is critical to life.
    Shutting that down could be done in two manors first is to cause enough pain that you overload the system. That is however almost impossible. You need a huge event, people have been struck by lightning which is a massive electrical attack to the central nervous system and lived long lives afterward. The other way is to break the CPU. Attack the brain stem directly. With small arms like a pistol it takes a marksman and even then evolution has armored it. The skull and spine. And a 9mm or 10mm round commonly used by law enforcement or military often are not accurate enough or powerful enough to get past the skull from the front without being redirected.

    Third is Toxic shock where in the body is loaded down with chemicals it is unable to deal with. This obviously has almost no baring here. It can occur from being shot if the wound becomes infected and is left untreated but that is a long slow painful way to die.

    Now we go the the case in point a police officer finds himself being attacked by a knife wielding attacker. He shoots the suspect center of mass.
    When a Cop or military is engaged by an attacker adrenaline red lines.
    They might be the best shot on the range but in combat adrenaline is a narcotic of its own produced by the Human body. It can rob you of precision because it changes how you see the world. Tunnel vision.
    It also changes how you react by increasing muscle impulse. Rather than a clean break of the trigger you rip it back. Your heart rate is peaked to. And time and perception are altered cops in this have sometimes been found to thing they fired once or twice and discovered they had in fact emptied the magazine, and hit nothing.

    On the other side of that the knife attacker is also amped up on adrenaline as well as the potential to be riding high on other narcotics. They don’t feel pain the way they should. There perceptions are also altered and a miss or a “warning shot” can be taken as impotence. Encouragement to continue attacking.

    Both sides of this are why “warning shots” are a total waste of ammunition.
    In this situation whether a Active shooter, a suicide bomber, a knife wielding man on a college campus or a knife wielding woman trying to force her way across a checkpoint. If they are in the mind to attack it can take a lot to put them down. A taser may not be enough and lethal force can take a while to kick in.
     
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