Falklands War, 1982, Thread

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b787

Captain
The article didn't proved anything though. All it said was an Exocet was launched which I can certainly take at face value however it didn't say anything past that event.

I don' think there are discrepancies if u read between the lines. There certainly was an 'attack' by the argentine jets that day but no missiles hit their target.

The good prince was right but so were the argentine pilots. One was 'attacked', the other 'attacked'... Both were technically true statements.

I did not translate the whole article, just how they planned it, and who piloted which aircraft and at what distance they fired the Exocet. I translated that because Obi Wan and Terran sometimes do skip details and fall in minor errors that are important to fix

For example the Exocet was launched at 40km-36km from the target, the Super Etendard were never ever fired at by the British fleet, they painted the target and fired at it and returned to Argentina.

Gerardo Issac saw the Exocet ignite its engine and fly to the target.

The Etendard are naval aircraft and the claim they did not have experience is totally wrong, if you look at 02 it was the same aircraft that attacked the Sheffield.
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It was Gerardo Issac who said he saw the invincible hit and he claims he attacked it.

Now could he have made a mistake? perhaps, could the Exocet being shot down? maybe but what you probably do not know is that the British have changed their versions, from denial, the missile did not hit any thing, hit another ship, the Exocet was shot down and so on, Argentina has not changed their version.
Just a curious fact, both Exocet fired at both the Hermes and invincible are claimed by the British to have failed

The English later stated that HMS Sheffield had been attacked with an Exocet and that another missile had passed by in front of the Yarmouth Frigate. Both missiles were pointed at the large target, ie they had the same coordinates. The Exocet, among its many abilities, has the possibility to change targets if it does not find its target in the specified route, but also has proximity fuses that make it detonate if it passes very close to the ship without actually impacting it. These and other characteristics of the missile allow us to conclude that it is extremely difficult for a missile to hit a ship and the remainder pass long in front of that or another ship, without having changed direction by not finding anything in its initial route or exploding by Its proximity expoletas. There are several specialists who claim that the big target was impacted and that it was the Hermes aircraft carrier. Fact that would be compatible with the little activity of this one after the 4 of May.

In all cases, there were always three medium and one large targets. Both the Neptune and the Super Etendard confirmed such echoes on their screens. The official British statement indicated that HMS Sheffield had been hit, but if that was correct and effectively the "big" ship impacted was Sheffield, then the other three medium echoes should be about half the size of the large echo. Since Sheffield was approximately 120 meters in length, the only possibility that it would be the large target would be for the other three vessels not to exceed 50-60 meters, but the interesting thing is that the fleet did not have in the Zone of the conflict vessels of 50 meters in length. Taking into account that a Hermes aircraft carrier is approximately 200 meters in length and that the destroyers and frigates are between 120 and 100 m, it is far more reasonable to suppose that a large target (200 m) is escorted by two medium targets (100 To 120 m). It is known that both Exocets were shot to large targets. It is very unlikely that one misses the technical characteristics of this missile, but it is highly unlikely that two missiles targeting the same target will fail both.
The Argentine position is therefore evidenced as much more solid, ie the target hit was actually the aircraft carrier HMS HERMES and not the Sheffield:
Why then did the British declare that the ship destroyed was Sheffield?
Most likely, in fact, the Sheffield would have been attacked by the Argentine Air Force on the first day of fighting. When the Hermes was hit, the destruction of the Sheffield was bleached and the aircraft carrier failure, which represented a very serious setback for the fleet, was concealed. The British navy was considered invulnerable ... how then an aircraft carrier was seriously damaged? ... Perhaps two Exocet are not enough to sink an aircraft carrier, but surely the damage produced in its "dead" by two missiles of these characteristics must Be considerate.
For the supposed invulnerability of the fleet it was inadmissible to acknowledge what happened, in addition to a news of these characteristics would be more than sufficient cause for NATO to demand the Prime Minister return the fleet, and thus avoid discharging the countries Europeans in the face of the Soviet threat. For some reason, the British Government has imposed the Secret of War on everything that happened in the Malvinas. Very probably because in this case and in others that happened later, it would be catastrophic to prove that the British fleet did not present the strength that was believed, in addition to severely harming the political interests of Magaret Hilda Thatcher.
In 1981, Argentina had made a contract with the French government to purchase 14 Super Etendars and 14 Exocets. By April 2, 1982, Argentina had only received 5 aircraft and 5 missiles. Had all the planes and missiles available, Argentina could have won the war.

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This picture is of the Etendards flying on May 30th 1982, when they attacked the HMS invincible taken from the KC-130H
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kwaigonegin

Colonel
I did not translate the whole article, just how they planned it, and who piloted which aircraft and at what distance they fired the Exocet. I translated that because Obi Wan and Terran sometimes do skip details and fall in minor errors that are important to fix

For example the Exocet was launched at 40km-36km from the target, the Super Etendard were never ever fired at by the British fleet, they painted the target and fired at it and returned to Argentina.

Gerardo Issac saw the Exocet ignite its engine and fly to the target.

The Etendard are naval aircraft and the claim they did not have experience is totally wrong, if you look at 02 it was the same aircraft that attacked the Sheffield.
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It was Gerardo Issac who said he saw the invincible hit and he claims he attacked it.

Now could he have made a mistake? perhaps, could the Exocet being shot down? maybe but what you probably do not know is that the British have changed their versions, from denial, the missile did not hit any thing, hit another ship, the Exocet was shot down and so on, Argentina has not changed their version.
Just a curious fact, both Exocet fired at both the Hermes and invincible are claimed by the British to have failed


This picture is of the Etendards flying on May 30th 1982, when they attacked the HMS invincible taken from the KC-130H
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Let's just say that for the sake of argument what you posted above to be true and accurate... Well in that case it then invalidates everything you have claim thus far because now you're saying it was the HMS Hermes that was hit instead of the HMS Invincible!

Everything you have argued till now including all the 'evidence' you've presented has been about Invincible and not Hermes. Even the painted kill picture on the 02 Etendard is clearly the outline of an Invincible class carrier not Hermes.

I'm not taking sides however I feel that your argument is not consistent. So was it Invincible that got hit or Hermes? It can't be both!
 

b787

Captain
Let's just say that for the sake of argument what you posted above to be true and accurate... Well in that case it then invalidates everything you have claim thus far because now you're saying it was the HMS Hermes that was hit instead of the HMS Invincible!

Everything you have argued till now including all the 'evidence' you've presented has been about Invincible and not Hermes. Even the painted kill picture on the 02 Etendard is clearly the outline of an Invincible class carrier not Hermes.

I'm not taking sides however I feel that your argument is not consistent. So was it Invincible that got hit or Hermes? It can't be both!
Let me explain you.

When the Sheffield was attacked, there were early reports they hit the Hermes, the British said the Exocets aimed at it failed to hit it, thus only the Sheffield was hit, this was on 4th May 1982

This newspaper says the Argentine aircraft hit both the Sheffield and Hermes in the attack of May 4th 1982
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My point was they fired two Exocets at the Hermes, the British said they failed, early newspapers claimed they hit The Hermes and Sheffield but the British later admitted later they hit the Sheffield, this was on 4th May 1982.
Later on May 30th, 1982 they attacked the Invincible.

Here again the British had several versions, some they said the Exocet failed, was shot down, hit another ship and so on.

The point is the Etendard used their radars to target the carriers and they could distinguish with their radars the target size thus the ship type, however Exocet can change targets, so it is possible might hit another secondary target; in the case of the Hermes well the Sheffield was hit , but there are also inconsistencies of the British versions for example the engine breakdown and a very well paited invincible, but well that is kind of subjective.
 
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TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Except The British were launching Decoys and Chaff. Radar of the Argentines at the Time was not today's SAR the Image it gave was a warshak test It was good for range and Bearing but not details,
Add in Decoys chaff The Radar signature is all over the place.
Also One more important point here The Argentine Pilots really did not even know.
And my source on that is an Argentine pilot.
"You Break away, You never see your Target... And then the Newspapers The News Caster or Somebody Intelligence Is going to tell you (if) You hit the ship or not. Just Launch and Forget, That's the Mission today. And That is the Way we did it in the Malvinas."
 

b787

Captain
Except The British were launching Decoys and Chaff. Radar of the Argentines at the Time was not today's SAR the Image it gave was a warshak test It was good for range and Bearing but not details,
Add in Decoys chaff The Radar signature is all over the place.
Also One more important point here The Argentine Pilots really did not even know.
And my source on that is an Argentine pilot.
"You Break away, You never see your Target... And then the Newspapers The News Caster or Somebody Intelligence Is going to tell you (if) You hit the ship or not. Just Launch and Forget, That's the Mission today. And That is the Way we did it in the Malvinas."
See that in minute 31, they say 3 missions 5 missiles. In these 3 missions 2 ships were sunk, so basically they admit what Prince Andrew has said there was a 3rd attack to invicible.
If something was the Hermes, it was to be the first target of the Argentine Mirage aircraft and the French Exocet missiles fired from the Super Etendart. The axis of propaganda and psychological action on one side and the other, and the base of the British correspondents, who had to work under war censorship, including those of the BBC.

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The different versions given by the British


Version 1


The British Ministry of War reported, on June 1, 1982, that Argentine airmen had attacked the Atlantic Conveyor's hull, not the aircraft carrier. This same report says that in the attack on the container carrier an Argentine airplane is shot down. This version is fully refutable since the Atlantic Conveyor was attacked on May 25, was abandoned by its crew and sank 3 days later approximately 160 kilometers from the site of the attack on the Invincible.

Moreover, hardly a combat pilot who has made an exhaustive analysis of the target to attack, can confuse the silhouette of this ship with that of an aircraft carrier.



Version 2


On June 3, 1982, in denying the previous version, it was reported that the ship attacked was not the Atlantic Conveyor, but the Avenger frigate and that it overturned the Argentine aircraft by the Sea Dart system. The curious thing is that the Avenger did not possess said system of missiles. In this case it is also not credible that the pilots confused the image of this frigate with that of the Invincible.


Version 3
"On May 30 the battle group survived another air strike with Exocet, when the Avenger consummated their feat of flipping the missile with a 4.5-inch cannon, forty-five seconds after the alarm." (fifteen)

Not even talk of the Invincible, but that the attack went to that ship, and gives no details of any other aircraft flying over the area.

Version 4
Two FAA A-4C Skyhawks were shot down to the east of Soledad Island by the Sea Dart missile system fired by HMS Exeter; And a 4.5-inch HMS Avenger cannon has hit one. The Exocet could have impacted the Atlantic Conveyor's hull or could have been knocked down by the Avenger's anti-missile system, and the pilots could have mistaken the silhouette of the Invincible with the Atlantic Conveyor hull. This is the official version, however illogical it may seem.

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