Falklands War, 1982, Thread

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TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Obi,
I would argue that although no longer an antiship threat the 6inch guns of the Belgrano would have been a serious threat to the Infantry forces on the Falklands, much like how the Royal Navy shelled the Argentine garrison.
What are your thoughts on that?
 

Obi Wan Russell

Jedi Master
VIP Professional
Obi,
I would argue that although no longer an antiship threat the 6inch guns of the Belgrano would have been a serious threat to the Infantry forces on the Falklands, much like how the Royal Navy shelled the Argentine garrison.
What are your thoughts on that?
Certainly those guns posed a serious threat to troops ashore, and they had greater range than the British 4.5" guns used for the same task. The troop landings were still some weeks away at this point and the immediate threat was to the carrier Battle Group, against which the Argentina Navy had deployed their fleet in a pincer movement, with the Belgrano and two Exocet-armed destroyers to the South of the Falklands and the Carrier 25 de Mayo with two Type 42 DDGs forming the Northern pincer. The Submarine HMS Conqueror had been trailing the southern group for some time, whilst HMS Spartan was in contact with the Carrier group. She lost contact though, leaving only the southern group as a definite target. Low winds prevented the fully laden Skyhawks from being catapulted off the carrier so the attack was postponed for 24 hours, with the Belgrano group sailing in a holding pattern (leading to later false accusations that they were returning to port). Belgrano's group were about to sail into shallower waters (Burwood Bank) where Conqueror couldn't follow, so having lost contact with one half of the impending attack there was a chance we could lose contact with the other half.

RN Submarines were under direct control from London, not operationally a part of the Task Force. Adm Woodward was well aware of the threat both groups posed and being a former submariner himself understood the situation only too well. He sent an order directly to the Conqueror to sink the Belgrano, knowing the order would be intercepted by Northwood and cancelled, but he did it to impress upon his superiors just how important it was. It worked, and shortly afterwards the order to sink the Belgrano was issued by Northwood and the rest is history.

After the sinking, the rest of the Argentine fleet returned to base and didn't put to sea for the remainder of the war, so both tactically and strategically it was very successful for the British side, taking the Argentine navy out of the War at a single stroke.

The ARA General Belgrano DID pose a significant threat to the ships of the Task Force. Fifteen 6" guns in five turrets. All of which could outrange every gun in the Task Force, and none of our ships were fitted with armour. The words 'Knife through butter' spring to mind, as I'm sure they must have been on Adm Woodward's mind too. If she had attacked in bad weather (common in the area at the time) there is a good chance we might mot have been able to get Sea Harriers in the air, and at the time they could only attack her with free fall HE 'Iron' Bombs, not armour piercing, so to repel a WW2 Cruiser we would have to have employed WW2 tactics, dive bombing at close range in the face of a barrage of 40mm Bofors fire and sea Cat SAMs. We could have launched our own Exocets at her from some of the Frigates and Destroyers in the TF, but she probably had chaff launchers too and if she had penetrated to gun range she can inflict a lot of damage before she's taken out. Add in her own escorts lobbing Exocets at the TF, with Skyhawks attacking from their carrier and the outcome is far from certain.471px-ARA_Belgrano_sunk_svg.png ARA_Belgrano_sinking.jpg
 

FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
The map not completely good the British CVBG enter in the TEZ the 1st may better here
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"One Main Turret Removed"? She retained all five to the end of her life. No3 Turret was mounted at weather deck level the same as no 1 and no 5 turrets, so could only fore broadsides, not ahead.

In the upper photo you can just about make the Sea Cat Launcher at the rear of the bridge super structure, just in front of the forward funnel. Sea Cat was designed to replace a 40mm Bofors mounting in terms of space and weight requirements, one main reason it was so successfully installed on so many ships old and new around the world. It had 'Low ship-impact' as one of it's main design criteria. General Belgrano received two Sea Cat systems, one either side of the bridgeView attachment 35592
Thank you !
Ok i don' t have see the 3th turret in the front also not completely easy to see ...

For guns yes more big but less moderns, accurate i think get outdated fire control system in comparison with modern RN combattants my feeling... but 15 it is powerful !
 
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FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Certainly those guns posed a serious threat to troops ashore, and they had greater range than the British 4.5" guns used for the same task. The troop landings were still some weeks away at this point and the immediate threat was to the carrier Battle Group, against which the Argentina Navy had deployed their fleet in a pincer movement, with the Belgrano and two Exocet-armed destroyers to the South of the Falklands and the Carrier 25 de Mayo with two Type 42 DDGs forming the Northern pincer. The Submarine HMS Conqueror had been trailing the southern group for some time, whilst HMS Spartan was in contact with the Carrier group. She lost contact though, leaving only the southern group as a definite target. Low winds prevented the fully laden Skyhawks from being catapulted off the carrier so the attack was postponed for 24 hours, with the Belgrano group sailing in a holding pattern (leading to later false accusations that they were returning to port). Belgrano's group were about to sail into shallower waters (Burwood Bank) where Conqueror couldn't follow, so having lost contact with one half of the impending attack there was a chance we could lose contact with the other half.

...

Great post !
 

Obi Wan Russell

Jedi Master
VIP Professional
The map not completely good the British CVBG enter in the TEZ the 1st may better here
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The map is simply to illustrate the relative positions of the northern and southern pincers, and to indicate the Task Force was stationed to the east of the islands. How far east has been a matter of debate in itself for many years! Many British Soldiers at the time mockingly joked the Task Force members should have received the Burma Star for being too far east, but it was necessary to stay out of the range of as much of the Argentine Air Forces as possible, given that the Argentines only had two Hercules Tankers in service for In Flight Refuelling.

Thank you !
Ok i don' t have see the 3rd turret in the front also not completely easy to see ...

For guns yes more big but less moderns, accurate i think get outdated fire control system in comparison with modern RN combattants my feeling... but 15 it is powerful !
The fire control didn't need to be modern to be effective, it was accurate enough back in WW2 and the important point is no ship in the RN in 82 had any defence against 6 inch shells if they hit. Just one shell hitting the Sea Dart magazine of a Type 42 will be catastrophic. When the USN reactivated it's four Iowa class Battleships in the 1980s, although they had many modern systems fitted the fire control for the big guns remained the original 1940s fit. Simply because it worked. Target information was fed in from new radars as well but the targeting was still done with analogue fire control computers, basically glorified slide rules. They were as accurate as the guns themselves, just like Belgrano's fire control, which was of similar vintage. If she had closed to firing range on the task force. it could have been a blood bath. Despite being thirty years newer than those the Belgrano was designed to engage, the RNs ships were similar in size and speed to those WW2 ships and a lot less protected. Belgrano was a legitimate threat, not a relic, and the fact that she was still a relevant threat to the Task Force highlights the deficiencies of the Royal Navy after decades of under investment as much as anything else.
 
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bd popeye

The Last Jedi
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I'm guessing this photo is taken at San Pedro/Long Beach. I think I can see USS Lexington (CV 2) in the far right corner of the photo.
ARA General Belgrano as USS Phoenix (CL 46) Pre-war photo, date and location unknown

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Pearl Harbor Raid, December 1941 - USS Phoenix (CL 46) steams down the channel off Ford Island's "Battleship Row", past the sunken and burning
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, at left, and
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, at right, 7 December 1941.

U.S. Naval Historical Center Photograph #NH 50766
 

b787

Captain
No the ban was on Argentina not Latin America as a Whole.

Peru was taken over by a Pro Soviet Peruvian Army General Juan Velasco Alvarado in 1968 via a Coup.
The US imposed a embargo on Peru as a result. Peru was forced to seek Soviet military aid. And Acquired a large number of Soviet aircraft. This lasted until 1984 When Peru began acquiring western equipment again.
The Iran Contra affair was 3 years Later!
Terran read please more, Do you know how many dictatorships were in Latin America in the 1970s and early 1980s? what about Chile? Uruguay or Argentina? what about Brazil or Paraguay.

Go and read and prove me that those nations were democracies in 1982
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By the way do you know when was the Revolucion Sandinista in Nicaragua? the take over of Managua? it was in 1979, the contras were help by Argentina during the period 1979-1982
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One of the reasons the Argentine dictatorship was sure Washigton was going to help in the Malvinas Affair/Falklands affair was the fact they aided the USA operations in Nicaragua after the fall of Somoza, the nicaraguan dictartor who was defeated by the Sandinistas.


Carter had an embargo for such reasons, so you are pretty wrong, they knew the Argentine dictartoship was planning the invasion of Malvinas/Falklands since the 1970s
 

b787

Captain
Certainly those guns posed a serious threat to troops ashore, and they had greater range than the British 4.5" guns used for the same task.

The ARA General Belgrano DID pose a significant threat to the ships of the Task Force. Fifteen 6" guns in five turrets. All of which could outrange every gun in the Task Force, and none of our ships were fitted with armour.
the sinking of Belgrano was political, not a military threat, your own attached image said the Belgrano was further away than the 200 miles your own declared zone of exclusion, its guns did not reach the islands from the place it was sunk and was not even close to your fleet, the only reason it was sunk is because you were losing the sea war, Argentina was sinking your ships, and you needed to kill those sailors to bleed Argentina, a very coward act by the submarine Captain

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Obi Wan Russell

Jedi Master
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The 200 mile TEZ was a political invention indeed, asked for by the RN or given any real importance by either side's armed forces. The Argentine Leadership at the time have said then and since they did not place any significance on the TEZ, neither did Adm Woodward and his staff. As far as both sides were concerned, the entire South Atlantic was a war zone and any forces belonging to the other side were fair game. This was acknowledged several days earlier by the Argentine Government. The TEZ was dreamt up by politicians without regard to any Military advice, and was a source of irritation to both sides. At no time was it ever stated that Argentine forces outside the zone would be safe from attack, or given fair warning prior to an attack. The Belgrano's Captain, Hector Bonzo, stated he knew his ship was at risk from attack, and also acknowledged his ship was in a holding pattern at the time it was sunk, NOT heading back to port. His ship, by his own admission, was a legitimate target, and you dishonour the members of his crew lost in the sinking by suggesting otherwise. They were not innocent victims murdered without warning, they were brave warriors who fell in battle, and should be remembered as such.
 

b787

Captain
The 200 mile TEZ was a political invention indeed, asked for by the RN or given any real importance by either side's armed forces. The Argentine Leadership at the time have said then and since they did not place any significance on the TEZ, neither did Adm Woodward and his staff.
why do not you prove the Argentine high command said that with a Newspaper in Spanish from 1982 that they said that, let us see if they said that, they never said that, since the Belgrano was outside the zone and that was part of the Brazilian conditions

The Brazil the field and also press

Well, who knew. Brazil also took part in this secret game and the side of Argentina oddly enough. secret government files show that Brazil "warned" (another diplomatic term) the US would not accept that British troops attacked the American continent.

General João Baptista Figueiredo met with Reagan, the US government had the idea of mediating the conflict. Figueiredo then warns that the consequences would be serious if invaded the continent, leading to a general feeling of popular revolt that transcend the Argentine territory, including suggesting that Brazil could align with the Argentines.
It makes sense, the only thing that historically caused union among the inhabitants of Latin America has always been the outside threat. Perhaps this has deterred the British to carry out operations on the continent and also explains why this point will remain secret, admit that England drew back before the possibility of Brazil enter the conflict would be a lot.
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[/ QUOTE]
 
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