F-35 Joint Strike Fighter News, Videos and pics Thread

Discussion in 'World Armed Forces' started by Jeff Head, Dec 1, 2011.

  1. Jura
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    Jura Lieutenant General

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    there's "future fighter" in headline, but the article is mostly about F-35, so this thread for
    USAF starts work on defining adaptive engine for future fighter

    10 July, 2018 https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...k-on-defining-adaptive-engine-for-fut-450053/

     
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  2. Jura
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    Jura Lieutenant General

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    The U.S. Air Force Is Hiding Its Controversial Flyoff Between the A-10 and F-35

    July 10, 2018 http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...ontroversial-flyoff-between-the-a-10-and-f-35

    while
    Jan 28, 2018



     
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  3. Equation
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    Equation Lieutenant General

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    They're both drastically different planes with different design parameters. It doesn't matter what the test show. o_O
     
  4. Jura
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    Jura Lieutenant General

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    OK let's say it doesn't matter if the test is rigged or not, but what will remain are tactical considerations for actual CAS missions in 2020s
     
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  5. Equation
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    Equation Lieutenant General

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    The improvement of smart bombs and guided arsenals dropped from either plane will be the same really. Most CAS missions as in support of any ground assault units will be done by attack helicopters anyway. CAS strike by either the A-10 or F-35 are more for precise targeting mission types.
     
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  6. TerraN_EmpirE
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    TerraN_EmpirE Tyrant King

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    Indeed.
    In actuality Actual air attack on ground forces is not quite what it is hyped to be.
    A10's "Success" has a lot of Caveat and justifying footnotes. In general the function is more Psychological than practical especially when dealing with Opfor with Air defenses. Remember for the Tank on the ground especially a modern tank They have a much simpler job when being attacked from the air then the guy who is attacking from the air. I mean the guy on the ground's job is survive and maybe let loose with some fire. The Pilot has to Attack, Navigate and Survive.

    Consider the Avenger. The Vaunted Gau 8 cannon that causes amours feelings among fan boi and is so culturally identified with the A10.. The chances of actually hitting a point on the Tank sensitive to a 30mm are low, An IFV more likely but remember IFV cannons are more likely to be the same caliber and a 30mm round will do a hell of a lot more damage on a aircraft then a ground vehicle.
    In trails and testing the fact is the chances of actually hitting a tank with the gunnery of a fighter are low remember that gunnery training is done on fixed targets and guided in. Well ground forces can make this difficult first camouflage the vehicles. If the Attacker cannot find the target well that's a waste of fuel.
    Second if spotted, move. a moving small target is far more difficult.
    Third OPEN FIRE!! Most Machine guns and Auto cannons have tracers every few rounds a Pilot seeing these has to think to himself " Well that's one Round I see and as much as a dozen I don't. Triple A rate of sucess is one sided to the Aircraft's survival but all it takes is one lucky hit.

    The actual number of enemy forces destroyed by air attack vs the number claimed historically is very one sided with the air forces claiming more then actually destroyed, and more often than not it's not Aircraft like the A10 that have really succeeded it's been fighter bombers and even then there are a lot of weaseling to bump up the numbers.
    In historic testing using unguided Rockets, The British in the second World war took a captured German Panther painted it white and put it in a empty field then attacked it with fighters. The fiters fired 64 unguided rockets at it. 3 hit. Now yes world war 2 tech. Later American studies along the same lines in the 50's using F86 Sabers against Soviet IS-3 indicated that at a range of around 900m the chances of hitting the tank with rockets was .4% if undefended but add in a defending .50 cal and the Chance drops to .35% with a 50% chance that the Saber would have been shot down.
    Again that's a older aircraft tech set but it's important to realize the attack pattern which is the same as what the A10 was supposed to do IE a Charge at enemy armor. The weapons originally envisioned for the A10 were mostly unguided with the sole exception of the Mavrick TV guided missile. This reliance on Strafing means places the Aircraft at a higher rate of attrition. In the Gulf war A10 and F16 were placed in similar missions yet F16 had the higher chance or return from a CAS mission despite the armored and Survivability features of the A10. Why? guided bombs, Faster speed and standoff.


    Bingo!!
    First The chances of killing Enemy forces with a guided munition are far higher then a unguided, and it can be done at stand off ranges and altitudes this is why you have Aircraft like the F15E and SU34.
    The A10 was designed for Virtual Attrition. Not to kill Enemy forces but to slow them down.
    It and CAS offered more accuracy vs then (1970's) available artillery, Which would only saturate a general area placing maneuvering forces at risk of potentially coming under fire. The Advent of Guided artillery and guided air munitions reduces the needs in this area.
    It is also more maneuverable then artillery allowing it to support forces deeply embedded in enemy lines and out of conventional artillery range like Airborne forces.
    second is more Psychological effects on both sides. For supported forces they see the Enemy being attacked and feel they will have a easier time engaging a distracted and panicked foe.
    For attacked forces they often face issues as less competent troops will panic and become unruly this breaks down discipline and renders the force less effective. In a armored formation panicked troops may even attempt to flee there vehicles exposing themselves to fire.
    Historically it's a constant of warfare that Air forces have claimed more kills against ground forces then later proven. CAS attack as proven more effective by Fear and Terror then actual destructive capacity. Where CAS have proven more effective is in loss of control for the enemy it cause a panic and in a panic the force responsible can take advantage.

    This is why the A10 is so loved yet is really not the machine it's made out to be, It has a hard bite but far far more Bark.
     
  7. Air Force Brat
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    Air Force Brat Brigadier

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    Amen Jeff Head, let the losers fly their old 4 Gens, hell, the bad guys are all flying 4 Gens anyway,,, the bad boys have less than 3 Dozen 5 Gens in any regard?? and production has stagnated everywhere but in Fort Worth!
     
  8. Air Force Brat
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    Air Force Brat Brigadier

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    Well Bub, I'd say you're "pipper" is off on this run,,, the A-10 with the GAU-8 is a tank killing machine,,, comparing the A-10 to a piston fighter from world war two and an F-86 with unguided rockets is simply "lame"! The A-10 is without a doubt the most deadly aerial gunnery platform ever flown on this planet,, and the idea that you'd have to get lucky to hit a "weak point" is just so disappointing coming from you??? I mean I'm absolutely ''stupefied",,, I expect all the fan boys from the other team to miss, but even master Jura could get this one right???

    In fact if I didn't see your Avatar and read A-10, I'd think it was my mis-informed little brother posting "fake news" about how bad the F-35 is??

    The A-10 is a cold blooded up close Samurai Sword, cutting the bowels out of the enemy,, its up close and will scare the hell out of you before it kills you deader than a hammer!

    Now having said that it has a few faults, OLD WINGS, (they all need re-winged), its too damn low and too damn slow,,, thank God its a "FLYING TANK", or it would be "dead meat" on every mission, antique avionics and no easy provision for sensor fusion...

    but its a damned good airplane, and if the task at hand was blowing the hell out of tanks with a gun, ANY tank, Any time, there is NOTHING on the planet that will even come close...


    Now having said all that, its a dead duck when put up against modern Russian S-400s and soon to be S-500s, yet that same ACK ACK is dead meat if they light up that radar with an F-35 or F-22 in the vicinity, and that my friend, along with Sensor fusion is why its kinda stoopid to have a fly-off between the F-35 and A-10 at all.. just another hellaciously expensive wad of taxpayer money down a rat hole....

    Actually what that post deserves is to be worn by you, front and back like a billboard for a fast food joint and walk you into an A-10 Squadron Headquarters and lock the door behind you,,,

    theres NOT a single poster on SDF who has a clue compared to you on personal weapons, NOT ONE, so how can you miss this easy fly-boy shit, even your Mom knows the A-10 is a hellacious weapon with that GAU-8,,, even the other teams fan boys will admit that without twisting their arms clean off?? LOL
     
  9. Air Force Brat
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    Air Force Brat Brigadier

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    So why don't you tell us why you think the F-35 is so bad, I know its not because you love the F-22,,, that I understand very well, I fully concur that scrubbing the F-22 for the F-35 was an act of extreme stoopidity!

    did you work for LockMart or a LockMart competitor and lose your job, or your green card??? whats the real truth Bub, I think we deserve to know your frame of reference???

    and further more, you have yet to link or ink a serious concern about the J-20 or the Su-57,, are you trying to play both sides against the middle,,, or just be a "good guy"???
     
  10. TerraN_EmpirE
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    TerraN_EmpirE Tyrant King

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    First Brat I knew you would call me out. I was expecting it.
    And I appreciate it. But there are points here.
    First I was focusing in on a set of weapon types. Those being the Gun system and the Rocket systems. Which have changed some but not all that much. The Rocket system of the A10 is the Hydra 70 or 2.75 inch rocket unguided. That Rocket family evolved form the FFAR used in the F86 Saber.
    Upgrades are coming to that system in the Form of the APKWS II which adds a guidance system.
    The Gunnery of fighters is also not a laser beam here. the Avenger is good don't get me wrong and Gatling cannons are very very stable thanks to there rotation but the amount of control needed to nail a individual tank at more than a kilometer is not a easy task. The Pilot is lining up his aircraft to make that kill to
    Factor in Improvements in Armor,
    If we were talking a T55 Tank Absolutly a Gau 8 would liquidate the Tank Crew and then some. Heck the Gau 22 on the F35 would do that. Even Early model T72 and T80 but modern armor here Brat. Against your average IFV or ICV sure modern Armor though... That's a rough nut even for another Tank with a Far bigger round.
    An Air attack with either the Gun or Rockets by an A10 is more going to come down to a act of desperation. Before a A10 Driver does that he is going to use another means of attack Options like Cluster munitions ( now out of favor) Classic iron bombs and then guided weapons the Maverick ( now out of favor), laser guided weapons, WCMD, SDB, JDAM and JSOW. What do these weapons do?
    They give the A10 stand off and make it so that the A10 doesn't have to strafe a Target.
    Basically they make it so that the A10 doesn't need to line up the Avenger or Rocket pod.

    Oh and

    That's just about what I said.
    The Problem is That the Flying Tank is based around the Idea of making a Strafing attack to kill Tanks with the gun and Unguided weapons. The problem is that doing that is also lining up the A10 for ground fire. Sure they might light up a Tank or two but if doing that means Taking a Missile up the tail pipe. Is a 18.8 million Dollar bird and the Pilot worth it? For the bad guys A MANPAD that costs a fraction of that is a good deal.

    The Evolution of the A10 has been away from using the Gun and Rockets as the main attack because doing that is so dangerous. Hell same reason why fighter on fighter gun kills are so rare. It's easier and cheaper to have a missile kill.
    Sensor fusion and guided munitions were created specifically so that you don't need to build a machine like the A10. Missile systems like the Hellfire and JAGM are so that the Attacker can sit back 5 miles and kill tanks with out need of gunning or rocketing them. So that the Pilot doesn't need a Titanium bath tub. Between a mile of Altitude and and a Titanium bathtub Which will protect you better?

    It's not just the Long and Intermediate range systems it's the improved SHORAD systems to. In the First Gulf war 6 A10s were lost due to SAMs and Triple A fire 2 of those are believed to have been MANPADS. In the second a another was lost again a SAM site. IF lining up a attack with the GAU 8 or Hydra 70 missiles means a greater chance of loosing the Aircraft and Pilot, Is the system really a cost effective reality???

    Really don't care what my Mom knows but that's a bit personal. End of the Day. Here is my point The type of CAS the A10 was designed for back in the 1970's is not the Type of CAS it has been moving to over the past decades.
    It did fine against forces who had been deployed with limited Air defense but as the threat of Close Air defense rises as systems like the SA-22 Greyhound and Type 95 SPAAA as well as S400 and S500 proliferate the Type of mission CAS the A10 was designed for the GAU 8 was designed for become far more dangerous and are increasingly handed off to Stand off range guided missiles and Weapons. As this happens the A10 is increasingly a weapon system that looses need of it's uniqueness and missions it does can be more and more handled just as well by other Fast mover Higher flying platforms starting with F16C, F15E and soon F35A.

    The problem is some people think that CAS can only mean Charging the Enemy GAU 8 Blazing. From the Armor side of things Which is the point I was trying to make That makes him just as much a target. As a A10 in that attack can only take maybe 1 tank at a time. Well It's a rare thing to find a single tank on his own you are more likely to find a Tank Company who seeing a A10 wing lining up is going to open up with every weapon at there disposal. And between the two The ones who are more sensitive to damage is the guy in the Air. Because even if the fire don't kill him the sudden impact with the ground can. As opposed to the Crew on the ground who worst case will have to bail out of a burning the tank and walk home.
     
    #6040 TerraN_EmpirE, Jul 12, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018
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