F-35 Joint Strike Fighter News, Videos and pics Thread

Brumby

Major
Australia Should Buy F-22s, Not F-35s, Says Retired RAAF Wing Commander

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A submission to a Senate inquiry into the feasibility of Government’s planned purchase of at least 72 F-35 Lightning II fighter jets says that the multirole planes will be instantly outmatched in air superiority by the airborne wings of competing countries in the region like China and Indonesia, and will fare even worse against future threats. It suggests — hypothetically — that Australia instead push for the F-22 Raptor, a jet that the United States has never sold to even its closest military allies.

In
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to the Senate Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade’s
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, Royal Australian Air Force Wing Commander Chris Mills AM, MSc, BSc (Retd) says that lessons from history and statistical modelling suggest that the F-35 is a poor choice for the future of warfare in the region, which centres around air superiority versus countries like Indonesia and China.

A simulation showing six F-35s versus six Sukhoi SU-35S,
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future air superiority fighter choice for
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, suggests that 2.36 Joint Strike Fighters would be lost for every SU-35S downed. The simulation was run on
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developed by Mills’ RepSim, a company he and a colleague set up after retiring from the RAAF.

A simulation of the aerially superior F-22 Raptor, though, results in an almost precisely opposite outcome — with 2.14 Sukhoi jets destroyed per F-22 loss. While the F-35 is a newer jet, it is a multirole fighter capable of ground attack and reconnaissance, while the F-22 has the sole role of air superiority and supremacy in enemy airspace.

With future fifth-generation aircraft like the
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, China’s own
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and
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on the horizon from Australia’s regional competitors, Mills suggests that production of the F-22 be restarted and the fighter itself exported for Australia’s use in local air superiority roles. Production of the F-22 by Lockheed Martin, its partners and the USAF was discontinued in 2011, but Mills says the tooling to produce several hundred new jets still exists and could be put to work on the very same production line as creates the Joint Strike Fighter in Dallas, Texas.

This is a thought exercise, obviously — the United States has never sold the F-22A to any other country on Earth, and the export itself is currently banned on national security grounds. But the shortcomings of the F-35 — without any next-generation
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over-the-horizon air-to-air missiles like the
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planned for Australia, although that missile is being developed for F-35 compatibility by the UK RAF and Ministry of Defence — are made clear by Mills’ submission.

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from retired Wing Commander Anthony Wilkinson says that in its capacity as a multirole aircraft, the F-35’s bomb load is too small and its range is too short to be effective in the South Asia region. Other submissions, like that from Jai Galliott, suggest the Air Force and government should look into drones and pilotless versions of the F-35, which are not currently planned for development. [
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]

This article is interesting because it talks of a simulation done putting the F-35 against the SU-35 and the F-22 against the SU-35. The details of the sim can be downloaded from the submission link found in the first sentence of the second paragraph.
(credit for this article goes to Jura who pointed it out to me)
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Unready for War: America’s F-35 Gets a Bad Report Card

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A not too complementary piece on the F-35 program. Generally, I don't have any problem with negative reports because they tend to tell me things that are more insightful than typical PR release. Personally I think the best thing they can do for the program is to take a hit and re-baseline the IOC dates to allow program management to fix the problems the right way. Without addressing the problem correctly, it is simply kicking the bucket down the road. Such problems are fixable, they just need to be detached from the political process.


The Marines are happily flying and maintaining their F-35s and are planning on an imminent deployment to Japan, that simulation is old, old news and has been widely discredited as using a very flawed metric, besides the F-22 against the SU-35 would be at least 6 to one or 6 to none??? more likely. The F-22 is so far superior to the SU-35 it really isn't on the same planet, and do read Jura's report on the F-22 thread. The F-35 will offer war fighting situational awareness that exceeds even the F-22???

But the real proof will be forthcoming as the F-35 is now being incorporated in Green Flag, Red Flag exercises?? I'm sure its doing rather well.
 

Brumby

Major
U.S. Air Force says plans test F-35 deployment this month

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The U.S. Air Force will deploy four Lockheed Martin Corp F-35 fighter jets to a different U.S. air base this month as it assesses whether the new warplane can be declared combat-ready by August as planned, a senior officer told Reuters on Thursday.

Major General Jay Silveria, who heads the U.S. Air Force Warfare Center at Nellis Air Force Base, said the F-35 jets would be sent from the Nevada base to Mountain Home Air Force Base in southwestern Idaho later this month.

The deployment would include pilots, mechanics, spare parts, equipment and the plane's computerized logistics system to test the ability to deploy the plane for combat, he said.

The test would help the Air Force assess its ability to send the jets to other locations and ensure that they can be repaired and maintained, Silveria said.

"What we’re trying to do is exercise the deployment concepts and to learn from maintenance and learn from (operations)," Silveria said.

Like any warplane, maintenance of the F-35 requires specialized tools and materials, and it was critical that all those tools travel with the jet when it deployed, he said.

Silveria said the test deployment was part of an assessment of whether an initial squadron of F-35 jets was ready for combat. He said the warfare center was due to deliver that "operational readiness assessment" to General Hawk Carlisle, head of Air Combat Command
in July.

Carlisle would use the assessment to help decide whether an initial squadron of F-35A fighter jets was ready for combat.

Silveria, a pilot who also flies the F-35, said the 12 F-35s based at Nellis Air Force Base were performing well in regular exercises with other aircraft, and had proven their ability to share data and communicate with fourth-generation jets.

He said the jets were now also able to share data within a formation of four F-35 jets flying together - a capability he experienced during a flight in the past week.

The Air Force hoped to declare that it had an "initial operational capability" of F-35s between August and December.

The U.S. Marine Corps declared an initial squadron of 10 of its F-35B model jets ready for combat last July. The F-35B can take off from shorter runways and land like a helicopter,

Two Air Force F-35s are slated to have their first international deployment when they fly to Britain in July to participate in two British air shows.

Moving one step closer. Good to note that the data sharing capability in a four plane formation is working. I read somewhere before that the 4 plane diamond formation is supposedly the optimal formation in terms of fidelity in situational awareness. May end up that the F-35's will operate in 4 plane formation as lowest denominator of a tactical unit.
 

Air Force Brat

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Super Moderator
U.S. Air Force says plans test F-35 deployment this month

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Moving one step closer. Good to note that the data sharing capability in a four plane formation is working. I read somewhere before that the 4 plane diamond formation is supposedly the optimal formation in terms of fidelity in situational awareness. May end up that the F-35's will operate in 4 plane formation as lowest denominator of a tactical unit.

actually I'm going to stick my neck out and say no, a two ship will still be the USAF go two platform for most missions, with the solo still always a viable option, especially for a deep strike. The single and the two ship are always far more stealthy, emit much less, and attract far less attention coming and going.

A four-ship departing, especially carrying weapons will be noticeable, and spies will no doubt jeopardize the element of surprise.

Now you are correct in that the four ship tactical formation will be a primary in F-35 operations due to data sharing, and if things get serious with one of our near peers, the four ship is a very deadly combination for the F-35 in particular, and General Carlisle did indicate that the F-35s would go with that far more often than the F-22 squadrons, where a two ship is the optimal "pairing"? pun intended. LOL

For those who maintain the F-35 will not be the "striker" that the A-10 was, I would remind you that any tank formations etc, will NOT have the advance warning that there is "incoming" and will remain in formation. Making them much easier to take out, while remaining "incognito", excercising "launch and leave" you will be half-way home before anyone knows you are coming, all without a single emission?? yep, and that works!

We are often seeing a Raptor two ship, paired with a ThunderHogge II two ship in a diamond, that will also be a factor, a big factor, there is a reason there are so many of those pictures, and General Carlisle would say,,,,,",uh, yeah??"
 

Brumby

Major
actually I'm going to stick my neck out and say no, a two ship will still be the USAF go two platform for most missions, with the solo still always a viable option, especially for a deep strike. The single and the two ship are always far more stealthy, emit much less, and attract far less attention coming and going.

A four-ship departing, especially carrying weapons will be noticeable, and spies will no doubt jeopardize the element of surprise.

Now you are correct in that the four ship tactical formation will be a primary in F-35 operations due to data sharing, and if things get serious with one of our near peers, the four ship is a very deadly combination for the F-35 in particular, and General Carlisle did indicate that the F-35s would go with that far more often than the F-22 squadrons, where a two ship is the optimal "pairing"? pun intended. LOL

For those who maintain the F-35 will not be the "striker" that the A-10 was, I would remind you that any tank formations etc, will NOT have the advance warning that there is "incoming" and will remain in formation. Making them much easier to take out, while remaining "incognito", excercising "launch and leave" you will be half-way home before anyone knows you are coming, all without a single emission?? yep, and that works!

We are often seeing a Raptor two ship, paired with a ThunderHogge II two ship in a diamond, that will also be a factor, a big factor, there is a reason there are so many of those pictures, and General Carlisle would say,,,,,",uh, yeah??"

While the one or two plane formation has historical roots and proven utility in combat, the F-35 four plane flying formation is an interesting ongoing development that deserves some attention. There isn't much public information and so is basically speculative reinforced by semi official comments. In the past, there had been reports that effort was being made to conduct data exchange within such a formation. The recent report seems to confirm success in this area. However the information doesn't answer whether such success means they have successfully fused a functioning composite picture rather than as basic as merely data exchange. it is also an unknown the effective distance of MADL links which would be a limiter in terms of geo locating a 4 plane formation. Having said that, I believe a 4 plane formation will continue to dominate as an ongoing F-35 plane formation because I believe such a formation presents an optimal situational picture at a tactical level and effort will be made to understand the utility of such a formation. I have produced a simple schematic of such a formation to demonstrate that it automatically provides tight data links and inherent ability to address redundancy as a matter of design.

upload_2016-2-7_13-18-11.png

I also believe the four plane formation is itself a numerical limit to fused a composite picture at tactical level. In other words, there will be no tactically fused composite picture beyond four planes.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
While the one or two plane formation has historical roots and proven utility in combat, the F-35 four plane flying formation is an interesting ongoing development that deserves some attention. There isn't much public information and so is basically speculative reinforced by semi official comments. In the past, there had been reports that effort was being made to conduct data exchange within such a formation. The recent report seems to confirm success in this area. However the information doesn't answer whether such success means they have successfully fused a functioning composite picture rather than as basic as merely data exchange. it is also an unknown the effective distance of MADL links which would be a limiter in terms of geo locating a 4 plane formation. Having said that, I believe a 4 plane formation will continue to dominate as an ongoing F-35 plane formation because I believe such a formation presents an optimal situational picture at a tactical level and effort will be made to understand the utility of such a formation. I have produced a simple schematic of such a formation to demonstrate that it automatically provides tight data links and inherent ability to address redundancy as a matter of design.

View attachment 24858

I also believe the four plane formation is itself a numerical limit to fused a composite picture at tactical level. In other words, there will be no tactically fused composite picture beyond four planes.

Possibly? and General Carlisle did say that it would take an 8 ship to do the work of 2 Raptors?? Still on a day to day mission profile, the two ship will remain the go-to, a two ship is so much more agile than any larger formation. The two ship dates back to WW II IIR, with a flight lead and a wingman, and many of the early modeling of the ThunderHogge II formations are two ship with a little larger separation than normal two ships, but then Raptors have a looser formation when mission profiling as well?

Of course you are absolutely right when the stuff begins to fly, but in peace time, I'm rather certain that the two ship will remain operational dogma, but its very simple to pull a couple of two ships together for data fusion, as well as information mining in order to get a full picture in 4D, which will provide more accurate targeting information for those truly 'close air support" missions.
 

FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
F-22/35 concept, i have find...

Nowadays, stealth fighters – F-22, F-35 – are often being compared to each other and to other, non-stealth fighter aircraft. While these comparisons make sense, exposing certain advantages and disadvantages, they typically ignore one crucial detail. All stealth fighters are designed for one, or a narrow range, of highly specific missions.

F-22 was designed for air combat deep inside the Soviet-era IADS, intercepting enemy fighters while they were still heavy with unspent fuel and missiles and possibly gaining altitude after takeoff. As a consequence, it was designed with emphasis on supercruise and all-aspect stealth.

F-35 is a result of USAF / US Navy’s requirement for first-day-of-the-war stealth bomber, intended to degrade IADS before nonstealthy strike aircraft and equally nonstealthy escort fighters move in to carry out their missions; consequently, frontal stealth, in-built targeting pod and MAWS were given emphasis while supercruise and maneuverability were more-or-less ignored.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Australia Should Buy F-22s, Not F-35s, Says Retired RAAF Wing Commander

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This article is interesting because it talks of a simulation done putting the F-35 against the SU-35 and the F-22 against the SU-35. The details of the sim can be downloaded from the submission link found in the first sentence of the second paragraph.
(credit for this article goes to Jura who pointed it out to me)
Production line is in stasis and unlikely to be reopened. Even if it was US export ban on F22 would have to be repealed. Basically its fantasy.
 
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