F-35 Joint Strike Fighter News, Videos and pics Thread

[Brumby]

Well Pierre Sprey, Bill Sweetman, and Carlo Kopp are generally F-35 nay sayers, on Defense Talk, the mods refer to them as the "clown club", while some of their information is no doubt usefull, the F-35 is moving forward and the F-22 is out of production and line disassembled sadly?? Like others their stock in trade are media "shock and awe???" although they love to overblow and hype problems, they are still living on their "laurels", but to be sure TP is on the money here.

While I was not impressed initially with the F-35, in hindsight, I should have had more faith in LockMart as they have consistently come up with winners. The F-35 continues to rack up sales, and the price continues to drop, and while the F-22 was and will continue to be the worlds most capable A2A platform, it is very unlikely to be revived sadly

I appreciate the point that was made by TP and the point is taken. Unfortunately we are prone to bias confirmation i.e. we look for the things that support our view point and discount those that do not. An objective view is to take each work on the basis of its quality or lack of and make judgement accordingly.

In regards to the F-35, part of the problem with the F-35 supporters in my view is the failure to articulate the strength of the platform, its potential and the opportunities to change the way air operations may be conducted. I believe the strength of the F-35 is not in the hardware but in the software and how the notion of situational awareness and sensor fusion comes together to transform the future mission sets through new tactics. I have not seen until recently, conceptual discussions of it being an ecosystem; a force multiplier; and as a transformational battlefield tool. Very often it is on the defensive on how it might cope against potential adversaries in aero dynamics and kinematics. That is how air warfare was conducted historical but not how it might be conducted if the F-35 is used correctly as designed. I like the idea that the primary aim of the F-35 in future battlefield is to ensure that the adversary looses situational awareness. In such a state, you gain tactical advantage; element of surprise, flexibility in execution; and force deployment advantage. It will be about tactical employment and execution and not traditional dog fights.

 

[Jura The idiot]

... I have not seen until recently, conceptual discussions of it being an ecosystem; a force multiplier; and as a transformational battlefield tool. ...

I believe I've seen such discussions at the time I was trying to follow F-35's design process (twelve, 13 years ago -- I admit it'd be difficult, if not impossible, for me to find those texts now though -- and how came? I'm Matlab/Simulink user/enthusiast) ... but now some F-35 supporters like me clearly see the delays, cost overruns; I'm sorry to repeat myself: most recently Israel bought 14 copies for $3b
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/f-...os-and-pics-thread.t5796/page-231#post-328515
and while I know about the cost breakdown, to me, the price of an F-35 is in excess of $200m now

 

[FORBIN]

Very difficult for know exact price, in more don't include engines ..., some also say that it is done on purpose to make it less clear... LM say now A want Fly away cost without engine minimum price in fact said memory about 95 mill $ but in 2014 USAF buy a F-35A with support etc... 150 : 3,844 bill / 26, a gap of 1/3 +.
bill/26

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Last F-22 in FRP, 24 by year cost about 150 mill $ in 2009, fly away would cost a little more now.

LM hope sold in 2018/19 in FRP one A for 80 mill minimum price, about 15 % less as now then if you calculate with actual USAF price he cost about 125 ( 80 x 1/3+) . Enough expensive more as planned but only a little more as a Typhoon, Rafale, want about 80 mill €.
Stealth aircrafs stay special to build more difficult all its flaps with a stealth design and RAM materials, different more expensive ofc...
In more a Stealth fighter is more big/large for insert weapons bay a Stealth Rafale would have cost much more.

To 125 millions definitely USAF can buy the 1763 planned normaly for 2035 about a very big number because replace not only 1000 fighters-bombers F-15/16/A-10 in Active USAF but also 600 in ANG and about 100 in AF Reserve USAF want for 2030's a fighters-bombers fleet only composed with 5th generation aircrafts stealth which is not the case of China and Russia which build again 4,5 generation ; then USAF do a bold choice or more careful for two others exist also RAAF choice mixed Fleet 4,5/5 with EW i think interesting.
But USAF is the only AF which can do this choice with a budget of 150 billions almost four times Italian budget...

The 90 first F-35 need upgrade not only for software but also fix for reactor ofc, some have had fatigue cracks or heat of the reactor have damaged the drifts, about 10/20 mill by fighter.

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[Brumby]

I believe I've seen such discussions at the time I was trying to follow F-35's design process (twelve, 13 years ago -- I admit it'd be difficult, if not impossible, for me to find those texts now though -- and how came? I'm Matlab/Simulink user/enthusiast) ...

I have to give you credit for having such a good memory. 13 years ago I wasn't even born yet - not literally of course. I am new to this of having a few months experience of reading this stuff and so any comments that are made rather ignorantly be given some slack.

I think my comments are still valid in the sense like battle tactics, F-35 supporters should engage conversations on the F-35 based on its strength and in its transformational usage. In other words, shift the conversational landscape and not let the detractors determine the talking points.

 

[Brumby]

Very difficult for know exact price, in more don't include engines ..., some also say that it is done on purpose to make it less clear... LM say now A want Fly away cost without engine minimum price in fact said memory about 95 mill $ but in 2014 USAF buy a F-35A with support etc... 150 : 3,844 bill / 26, a gap of 1/3 +.
bill/26

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Last F-22 in FRP, 24 by year cost about 150 mill $ in 2009, fly away would cost a little more now.

LM hope sold in 2018/19 in FRP one A for 80 mill minimum price, about 15 % less as now then if you calculate with actual USAF price he cost about 125 ( 80 x 1/3+) . Enough expensive more as planned but only a little more as a Typhoon, Rafale, want about 80 mill €.
Stealth aircrafs stay special to build more difficult all its flaps with a stealth design and RAM materials, different more expensive ofc...
In more a Stealth fighter is more big/large for insert weapons bay a Stealth Rafale would have cost much more.

To 125 millions definitely USAF can buy the 1763 planned normaly for 2035 about a very big number because replace not only 1000 fighters-bombers F-15/16/A-10 in Active USAF but also 600 in ANG and about 100 in AF Reserve USAF want for 2030's a fighters-bombers fleet only composed with 5th generation aircrafts stealth which is not the case of China and Russia which build again 4,5 generation ; then USAF do a bold choice or more careful for two others exist also RAAF choice mixed Fleet 4,5/5 with EW i think interesting.
But USAF is the only AF which can do this choice with a budget of 150 billions almost four times Italian budget...

The 90 first F-35 need upgrade not only for software but also fix for reactor ofc, some have had fatigue cracks or heat of the reactor have damaged the drifts, about 10/20 mill by fighter.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

The real shocker I believe will not be in the acquisition costs but in the operational costs.

 

[Brumby]

To 125 millions definitely USAF can buy the 1763 planned normaly for 2035 about a very big number because replace not only 1000 fighters-bombers F-15/16/A-10 in Active USAF but also 600 in ANG and about 100 in AF Reserve USAF want for 2030's a fighters-bombers fleet only composed with 5th generation aircrafts stealth which is not the case of China and Russia which build again 4,5 generation ; then USAF do a bold choice or more careful for two others exist also RAAF choice mixed Fleet 4,5/5 with EW i think interesting.
But USAF is the only AF which can do this choice with a budget of 150 billions almost four times Italian budget...

This subject is a very different conversation and not merely about cost if the comparison is made against China and Russia. The Strategic choice in procurement policy of the US in regards to the F-35 program is a function of two things. Firstly, it is a reflection of the fact that the US is ahead in the cycle. Secondly, it is where it is in the curve because it wants to be in a dominant position and as such you lead and not follow.

The more important question is not how much it is costing to deliver the program but how transformational and dominant the US can achieved with an all 5th gen force. This part is yet to be written and the question of cost is simply premature from that perspective.

 

[Jeff Head]

how transformational and dominant the US can achieved with an all 5th gen force.

But the F-22 and F-35 will not result in that.

The F-15Cs, F-15Es, F/A-18E/Fs will be around a long time. Those are probably not going to be fully replaced until the 6th gen aircraft comes along.

They will be supplemented by the B-52s, B-1Bs, the B-2s, the EA-18Gs, etc. during there same time period.

Once completely built out, the F-35s will replace the F-16s, the A-10s, the F/A-18C/Ds, etc. although I bet Air Guard units will continue to operate F-16s through most of the period as well.

 

[Brumby]

But the F-22 and F-35 will not result in that.

The F-15Cs, F-15Es, F/A-18E/Fs will be around a long time. Those are probably not going to be fully replaced until the 6th gen aircraft comes along.

They will be supplemented by the B-52s, B-1Bs, the B-2s, the EA-18Gs, etc. during there same time period.

Once completely built out, the F-35s will replace the F-16s, the A-10s, the F/A-18C/Ds, etc. although I bet Air Guard units will continue to operate F-16s through most of the period as well.

Point taken but the comments about an all 5th gen force should be read relatively and not absolutely.

 

[Jura The idiot]

I have to give you credit for having such a good memory. 13 years ago ...

thanks Brumby but there's an easy explanation to this LOL: during those years in the meantime I didn't follow the F-35 project! because I had to concentrate on topics which I could've posted just in Real Life Thread like: getting an apartment-mortgage-kid-new projects at work-etc.

 

[FORBIN]

The F-15Cs, F-15Es, F/A-18E/Fs will be around a long time. Those are probably not going to be fully replaced until the 6th gen aircraft comes along.

I am not sure F-35 will replace F-15E the last fighters acquired by USAF before F-22, eventually also the new cheaper Scorpion close support aircraft can may be really suffficient to calm some excited... to 20 bill/piece, and save budget for high-performance combat fighters.

F-15E might deserve for successor a new F-35 variant or eventually 6th gen. with a internal air to ground weapons load more important as F-35A, FB-22 cancelled which carried 30 SDB, yet 16 would be good, about 3/4t of weapons, one additionnal big hard point.