F-22 Raptor Thread

[Brumby]

I think we should not kid ourselves based on an announcement of "mulling" F-22 restart, as it may be just a trick being played as suggested by
Facing Election Fight, Forbes Pushes F-22 Revival

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(of course I'll NOT discuss Politics here, I'm just trying to point out that "restart" may be forgotten right after the elections, but 6Gen won't be)

Is it simply form driven by politics or is there actually substance to the re-start proposition? If it is merely form then it will die a natural death but if there is substance to it then it will generate a life of its own, Time will tell.

 

[FORBIN]

The conversation around a F-22 re-start vs. 6th gen needs to be anchored around a key consideration and that is what will be the likely battlespace in the 2030-2050 timeframe.

Look it, a what if only... i have see about 7/8 years ago on Planete TV, channel in French ofc
Interesting scenario to 33 mn with A2G attack, if you feel a big manta ray it is a B-2 !

 

[dtulsa]

Guys this is getting deep here it seems the only way (in my simple mind) is a dedicated version of the only aircraft being produced right now to provide air superiority if it can modified with a suitable airframe as much as it pains me to say that after all wasn't the F4 was modified into a rather good serviceable airframe throughout its life the 16 started out as a day only fighter did they not

 

[dtulsa]

And nine out of ten chances that's all it is political talk

 

[Air Force Brat]

Brother in Christ, I disagree completely, quote just the worst (in my view) part:

I mean there has been NOTHING moral in war-fighting ... anyway I give you Like for the thought-provoking post (and I'm sorry if I misunderstood you), it actually made to recall (in a Thread long gone)

referring to "PTSD" of a Drone Operator (it's preceded by very interesting posts by TE, off topic here so I finish).

Jura, I'm not talking about the Drone Pilot, in some ways he is also a victim, but they are soldiers, a fighter pilot who was involved in killing innocents also suffers. What I am talking about primarily are those who wish to engage autonomous heartless machines into taking life for them.

BHO has placed these drone operators in a very difficult position, and yes many innocent lives have been taken, and they may feel more guilt than the fighter pilot, who has himself gone in harms-way to accomplish his mission.

 

[Brumby]

What I am talking about primarily are those who wish to engage autonomous heartless machines into taking life for them.

BHO has placed these drone operators in a very difficult position, and yes many innocent lives have been taken, and they may feel more guilt than the fighter pilot, who has himself gone in harms-way to accomplish his mission.

I suspect you are running ahead of the conflict rules that are necessarily in place to prevent collateral damage and accidents. Whether the engagements are delivered via drones or through manned aircraft, the same decision process are followed to prevent accidents. I don't believe the US is at a stage (technologically) where there are autonomous killing machines. Rules of armed conflict requires human intervention within that decision cycle. The legal and moral problems with Obama in pursuance of drones as killing machines primarily revolved around :
(a)The legality of targeting non combatants;
(b)The legality of targeting US citizens; and the
(c) the absence of due process acting as judge, jury and executioner

Sorry that this is digressing from the thread.

 

[Air Force Brat]

I suspect you are running ahead of the conflict rules that are necessarily in place to prevent collateral damage and accidents. Whether the engagements are delivered via drones or through manned aircraft, the same decision process are followed to prevent accidents. I don't believe the US is at a stage (technologically) where there are autonomous killing machines. Rules of armed conflict requires human intervention within that decision cycle. The legal and moral problems with Obama in pursuance of drones as killing machines primarily revolved around :
(a)The legality of targeting non combatants;
(b)The legality of targeting US citizens; and the
(c) the absence of due process acting as judge, jury and executioner

Sorry that this is digressing from the thread.

Yes Sir, I agree that we are digressing and far afield, I just want my fellow posters to think about the things that keep me awake at night. At least you and Master Jura are likely at least somewhat conversant about what the book of Revelation states about the coming Biblical Apocalypse? hence my morbid concern about weaponized unmanned/autonomous aircraft or other vehicles. They present a "sterile", low risk means of "taking out" individuals, and our own president seems much more comfortable using these unmanned platforms for these "sordid" operations.

A pilot in the cockpit has a 360 degree eyes on ability to see the target, the F-35 with its awesome optics will make the "surgical strike" a reality, avoiding much of the collateral damage that continues to plague unmanned aircraft. So I will continue to argue in favor of manned aircraft, as well as other combat vehicles. Those who continue to insist that air combat is a thing of the past, remind me of those who in the 50s and 60s told us there was no need for a gun on a combat aircraft, and those who insist that air combat will not be "platform centric" are ignoring the sure lessons of history, much of which occurs as a "lateral" rather than "linear" change, we will likely even "regress" here in the near term, as the global financial crisis continues to deepen.

My point is the F-22 is still the most advanced capable aircraft in the world, and a platform that USAF and its leadership are convinced remain viable and necessary. I am going to agree with the old heads at USAF, rather than the tech centric policy wonks who "dream up these new scenarios in their sleep". The Boy Scout Moto remains, "be prepared"! and more F-22s are further insurance against the calamitous mess that is certainly headed our way. The recent mess in Syria and Iraq are further illustration that some folks are NOT concerned about "collateral damage", and refuse to take responsibility, when they take innocent lives of women and children, what makes you think they care about the rules of conduct??

 

[kwaigonegin]

Yes Sir, I agree that we are digressing and far afield, I just want my fellow posters to think about the things that keep me awake at night. At least you and Master Jura are likely at least somewhat conversant about what the book of Revelation states about the coming Biblical Apocalypse? hence my morbid concern about weaponized unmanned/autonomous aircraft or other vehicles. They present a "sterile", low risk means of "taking out" individuals, and our own president seems much more comfortable using these unmanned platforms for these "sordid" operations.

A pilot in the cockpit has a 360 degree eyes on ability to see the target, the F-35 with its awesome optics will make the "surgical strike" a reality, avoiding much of the collateral damage that continues to plague unmanned aircraft. So I will continue to argue in favor of manned aircraft, as well as other combat vehicles. Those who continue to insist that air combat is a thing of the past, remind me of those who in the 50s and 60s told us there was no need for a gun on a combat aircraft, and those who insist that air combat will not be "platform centric" are ignoring the sure lessons of history, much of which occurs as a "lateral" rather than "linear" change, we will likely even "regress" here in the near term, as the global financial crisis continues to deepen.

My point is the F-22 is still the most advanced capable aircraft in the world, and a platform that USAF and its leadership are convinced remain viable and necessary. I am going to agree with the old heads at USAF, rather than the tech centric policy wonks who "dream up these new scenarios in their sleep". The Boy Scout Moto remains, "be prepared"! and more F-22s are further insurance against the calamitous mess that is certainly headed our way. The recent mess in Syria and Iraq are further illustration that some folks are NOT concerned about "collateral damage", and refuse to take responsibility, when they take innocent lives of women and children, what makes you think they care about the rules of conduct??

The days of dogfighting drones dominating the skies is still far fetch at this point. Regardless of advancement in sensors etc. unless you're actually in the cockpit it's impossible to replicate the SA from a few monitors.

If you put two fighters within say a couple miles of each other knifefighting and the ROE is staying within that engagement envelope, I would place my bet on the 50 yr old MiG 17 or an A4 Skyhawk manned by an ace over some sophisticated drone flown on the ground ... EVERYTIME!

Unfortunately I do see AI becoming more of a reality in that particular role rather than remote control by a human.

 

[Air Force Brat]

The days of dogfighting drones dominating the skies is still far fetch at this point. Regardless of advancement in sensors etc. unless you're actually in the cockpit it's impossible to replicate the SA from a few monitors.

If you put two fighters within say a couple miles of each other knifefighting and the ROE is staying within that engagement envelope, I would place my bet on the 50 yr old MiG 17 or an A4 Skyhawk manned by an ace over some sophisticated drone flown on the ground ... EVERYTIME!

Unfortunately I do see AI becoming more of a reality in that particular role rather than remote control by a human.

I agree, and it concerns me very greatly, that jock in the cockpit has reason and feelings, two things your basic killing machine will lack, among a multitude of others! No way a pilot in a shack is gonna feel the battle as it develops, it just can't happen.

 

[kwaigonegin]

I agree, and it concerns me very greatly, that jock in the cockpit has reason and feelings, two things your basic killing machine will lack, among a multitude of others! No way a pilot in a shack is gonna feel the battle as it develops, it just can't happen.

Exactly! no different than a car except it's 1000X easier compared to aerial dogfighting! Automating a driverless car to drive from pt A to B is easy HOWEVER controlling an RC car via screens/monitors/cameras off site in an INDY 500 race or Formula 1 etc is downright IMPOSSIBLE and even more so if you're trying to dodge bullets at the same time.